How do you ensure everyone gets their fair share when creating a hit song? On this episode of Music Business Buddy, join me, Jonny Amos, as we unravel the intricate world of song splits and why having everything in writing is absolutely crucial. From understanding the distinction between the copyright of a song and its sound recording to navigating the division of rights between songwriters, artists and producers, we cover it all. Whether you're a band member hashing out splits or a hip-hop artist sorting the track and top line, early discussions and clear agreements are your best insurance against future conflicts.
Hear firsthand from songwriters Dan Whitehouse, Jay Max and Molly Morgan about their approaches to splitting rights. Dan shares his trust-based method, letting artists dictate fair percentages while he focuses on the collaborative spirit of songwriting. On the other hand, Jay champions the need for upfront agreements, suggesting an equal split between production and songwriting to maintain clarity and fairness whilst Molly sheds some light on the split processes in electronic dance music including the use of samples. Through their experiences and insights, we underscore the importance of empathy, fairness, and most importantly, documented agreements in the collaborative journey of making music. Don't miss this essential guide to understanding and navigating song splits in the ever-evolving music industry.
How do you ensure everyone gets their fair share when creating a hit song? On this episode of Music Business Buddy, join me, Jonny Amos, as we unravel the intricate world of song splits and why having everything in writing is absolutely crucial. From understanding the distinction between the copyright of a song and its sound recording to navigating the division of rights between songwriters, artists and producers, we cover it all. Whether you're a band member hashing out splits or a hip-hop artist sorting the track and top line, early discussions and clear agreements are your best insurance against future conflicts.
Hear firsthand from songwriters Dan Whitehouse, Jay Max and Molly Morgan about their approaches to splitting rights. Dan shares his trust-based method, letting artists dictate fair percentages while he focuses on the collaborative spirit of songwriting. On the other hand, Jay champions the need for upfront agreements, suggesting an equal split between production and songwriting to maintain clarity and fairness whilst Molly sheds some light on the split processes in electronic dance music including the use of samples. Through their experiences and insights, we underscore the importance of empathy, fairness, and most importantly, documented agreements in the collaborative journey of making music. Don't miss this essential guide to understanding and navigating song splits in the ever-evolving music industry.
Speaker 1:
The Music Business Buddy. The Music Business Buddy. Hello everybody and a very warm welcome to you. You're listening to the Music Business Buddy with me, johnny Amos, podcasting out of Birmingham, england. I'm the author of the book the Music Business for Music Creators. Amos podcasting out of birmingham, england. I'm the author of the book the music business for music creators, available in hardback, paperback and ebook format in all major bookstores and online. I'm a music creator. That's why I do this. Um, I have credits on a variety of major labels and independent labels as either a songwriter or as a producer, or sometimes both. I'm also a senior lecturer in both music creation and music business. Wherever you are, whatever you're doing, please consider yourself welcome to this podcast and to a part of this community. I'm here to educate and try and inspire music creators from all over the world in their quest to achieving their goals by gaining a greater understanding of the business behind music.
Speaker 1:
Episode one song splits. We're going to start with something very important here, because this is a subject which is often overlooked and not always discussed, and it can kind of cause a lot of problems if we're not careful. The big take home on this subject of song splits is this headline. It means nothing if it's not in writing. So instead of just waiting to get to that point later in the podcast, let's just say it now. That is the most important aspect of this subject, so let's begin by defining it. So, in the context of song splits, most commonly we're referring to the copyright of the song, not the recording, but the copyright of the song, right, so how the percentage of the ownership of that song is split and what that looks like as a royalty. However, there's also another aspect to consider, which is the sound recording, the copyright of the sound recording, the master rights. So, for example, let's say there's a songwriting artist that's working with a producer and they say right, okay, let's split this 50-50. The first thing I'd be thinking is what are you splitting? Are you splitting the recording or are you splitting the songwriting? If the answer's both, that's great, but it needs clarification.
Speaker 1:
There's also the context of working in bands, and this can be very, very difficult. There are many bands that split their songwriting evenly between all three or four or five, however many members there are, and there's nothing morally wrong with that. Bands there, amongst bands, there is a sense of cohesion, a sense of togetherness and often a sense of kind of collective thinking. Band members may well be investing equally, you know, when it comes to covering the costs of merchandise, travel, marketing, accommodation and whatnot. Because of those kind of outgoings, it can sometimes be assumed and there's the problem, is the assumption. It can sometimes be assumed that therefore the songwriting will be split equally between all band members.
Speaker 1:
Now, the I'm not here to tell you that that's not the right thing to do. The right thing to do is the thing that the bands choose to do, as long as they're educated on it and as long as they're comfortable with it. For instance, if a band member was present in a rehearsal facility whilst the songwriting process was going on and they didn't really take part, then they might feel like they are a part of the songwriting copyright because of their presence in the room at the time. Lots of bands do this differently. It's just good to be mindful of that. Let's take, for example, that same musician. If they were to leave that band a year down the line, and then that song becomes successful, maybe it gets some kind of sync placement, some kind of editorial support. It goes on, it does something else, it becomes a hit. Maybe it gets some kind of sync placement, some kind of editorial support. It goes on, it does something else. It becomes a hit, it gets into a film. Who knows what happens with it 20 years, 30 years down the line. That musician that was in that room that night, that nobody speaks to anymore, is still getting royalties for that. Now, these are the things that are often dealt with retrospectively and that there is the problem. It needs to be addressed early on in the process.
Speaker 1:
Song splits can also be quite difficult in the context of music production and arrangement and songwriting, and which one is which? If you've got several different parties involved in a project perhaps some as writers, some as lyricists, some as top line writers with melodic creation, some with production, some with arrangement it can get really, really blurry. It doesn't need to. It doesn't need to as long as everyone knows where they stand. And that perhaps starts with a conversation. Perhaps it's too awkward to have a conversation in person, so you do it over email. In fact, that's better, because then it's in writing. Again, if it's not in writing, it's rendered useless, so always worth thinking about putting it in writing.
Speaker 1:
Another aspect to consider is, of course, different genres. Now, in many ways it could be arguable. You know, if the genre changes, why should the subject of Song Split changes? But it does. Maybe it shouldn't, but it does. That's the reality. So, for instance, uh, in house music, uh, typically in in various electronic styles of music, um, you know, it's very often there's a differentiation between the track and the top line. Uh, you know, is that an automatic 50, 50? Well, in some cases yes, but again, if it's not explored or identified or or even noted, uh, then it becomes a problem. Perhaps it could be argued that hip-hop is similar to that, where there is a distinct difference between the track and the person or people that made the track. And then also what happens on top of that track, you know, as the top line, the lyrics, the melody, and how the lyrics and the melody attach to one another. That could be rap, rap, it could be singing, it could be a combination of the two, but that could be seen potentially as a different part of the copyright and therefore an assumption that there is a 50% split upon that section of a song.
Speaker 1:
We're in an age now where we see huge billboard hits with multiple writers, sometimes even more than 15 writers. Now, I can't imagine that that's actually, you know, kind of 15, 18, 20 people sat around a room working on a song. That would probably be quite difficult. The reality is different. The reality is it's people being cut in on the writing for different parts that they play, and again, there's nothing morally wrong with that. It could be perhaps that somebody has been brought in as a musical specialist, perhaps an arranger, perhaps someone that just focuses on lyrics or lyric adaptations or rhyme schemes, perhaps somebody has been brought in as a horn player and there's no budget to pay them. So they're going to cut them in on the equity of the song. Again, nothing wrong with that. This is up to the owners of the copyright to decide on these things. I've been involved in many projects with myself where I've been cut in on a small portion of a copyright for a particular role, such as guitars or synth arrangements or something like that.
Speaker 1:
So we can see, in electronic music there's sometimes a distinctive difference between the track and the top line. But outside of that, in other genres let's say's say, for example, more band orientated music, guitar led music, that kind of thing it can be quite different. It could be that a producer is very, very actively involved in the arrangement, in making suggestions, lyric changes, maybe even melodic changes, chord changes, and yet there isn't always the assumption that songwriting credit would be given to that producer. Then, of course, there's the subject of translation, which is not applicable to every kind of songwriter out there, but if, for example, you're writing for the South Korean or Chinese or Japanese market, it may well be that songs are written in English and then translated into the local native language. Now, a job of a translator there would be very, very, very different from a regular verbal translator that you might see helping somebody being interviewed on television, for example. It needs to be a specific songwriting translator. So, for instance, if we were to take the Japanese market, there is a culture about Japanese people that is honourable and therefore they may not want to change the melodies of the songs, but they have to change the lyrics, to change them into local language. So a word like hello with two syllables would then become konnichiwa, four syllables. So the rhythm of the language has to change and that is a part of the translation process and that would also eat into song splits.
Speaker 1:
Okay, let's get some, uh, let's get some context on this. Now I'm going to take some sound bites from three different songwriters that I've interviewed about this particular subject, and first up is uk-based recording artist, songwriter and media composer, dan whitehouse. Now, dan is a very interesting case study because he writes for a whole multitude of different projects, sometimes for his own projects, his own artist projects that he releases, sometimes for other people's projects, but also he works as a media composer. For those who are not familiar with that particular role, it means creating music that's primarily intended for use in television and film, so I asked Dan how he approaches the subject of song splits.
Speaker 2:
I approach assigning song splits in different ways depending on the project. Where possible I go for equal splits with my own music. The only times that that's been different is when, say, a mixing engineer has been entitled to a split. Often that happens happens more often for me in library music than my own music because often with my own music I'm hopefully paying the mixing engineer what they feel is a fair fee for their time and input. But sometimes with library music we might write a song me and another writer and then invite someone to mix it for a sort of cut price fee on the basis that they would get 10% to 20% of the songwriting royalties. And that can work well really, because within library music the sonics are everything. It can be so important how something sounds. That can be the sort of judge over whether or not it gets over the line and gets usage. So I think that's fair enough.
Speaker 1:
Interesting insight from Dan there, especially in the context of working with producers and arrangers for media projects. It's hugely relevant what he just said there about working with mix engineers. Of course sometimes it can come down to budget, right. You know, there's not always the money to want to pay somebody that you want to work with. Therefore, there is nothing morally wrong with cutting somebody in on a piece of the ownership of that song as a trade-off instead of paying them. You know again, as long as it's all in writing, it's all above board and everybody understands what's happening and it's all completely transparent, then it works. Loads of people do it every day.
Speaker 2:
I also asked Dan about the context of when he works with other artists and how the subject of song splits gets brought up, and he said this when I'm writing for other artists, I generally sit quietly and wait for them to invite and suggest percentage split that they feel is appropriate, Because I'm aware what it's like as an artist. They're probably balancing a multitude of concerns. They might have to share writing credits with session musicians and studio engineers if they haven't been paying them like their full rate. I wouldn't be like a bull in a china shop. I'd try to just be grateful that I was in the co-writing situation. I've been invited to be there, trusted with that, and just trust them to offer me a percentage that they felt was fair.
Speaker 1:
OK. So a pretty noble and very thoughtful, actually, insight there from Dan on that particular subject. One of the things I found interesting with the answer there is that he's thinking about the constraints that the artist faces. Perhaps that he has that level of empathy because he is an artist himself. He knows that he has to give up this or give up that or work with this person in that context, and therefore he's thinking like an artist and thinking empathetically towards other artists. Perhaps his role as an artist makes him, you know, a more useful, more thoughtful co-writer for other artists. I then asked dan about what he does about song splits. You know how he does it. Does he do it on email? Does he take a list of song split sheets around with him? But does he do it on google docs? What does he use? You know?
Speaker 2:
I've never done a song split agreement or anything um, but sometimes I've written it out on emails. That's as far as it goes.
Speaker 1:
Thankfully haven't had to get to use that yet it's interesting that he says he hasn't had to use it yet he also he registers his songs with prs, so that's another way of documenting what the splits look like. Uh, but it's never seemed to have been a problem for him yet, which is good. Maybe it hasn't been a problem because he's been documenting it so well, but what about those instances where, as a songwriter, you might feel I've done more here than that other person, or you know, I I gave this particular part, which I've had in my head or in my phone for however many years, and it really really means something to me? Therefore, I feel I should be owed a greater percentage. I asked Dan about that subject and how he tackles it.
Speaker 2:
I think that once you try and dissect a song, say, oh, that's mine, that's mine you're probably unlikely number one to write another song together. It's sort of splitting hairs, isn't it? Because it really is the beautiful fusion, it's the combination of different influences. It's like you can't take a dish and then remove a certain spice. Um, it wouldn't be the same dish nice little analogy.
Speaker 1:
It's making me hungry. Um, I asked dan to dig in a little deeper into the role of influences that he mentioned there. And I'm not talking about outside influences, things that are being listened to, etc. I'm talking about the how, the the influence of specific composers. You know, there are certain people that just walk into a room and they've got so many ideas or they bring the best out of other people around them.
Speaker 2:
Um, I asked him to share a little story with me a friend of mine told me a story that sticks in my mind about a three-way songwriting session on a retreat where one guy actually fell asleep for the duration of the session because they'd just come in off a flight and was jet lagged. But they still honoured the sort of agreement and gave that sleeping giant an equal split on the song because of his energy that he put in the room, and I would agree with that sort of way of thinking very insightful.
Speaker 1:
When we remove somebody from the room, the room changes, right, whether that's a song or not. That's a good example of it, right there. Uh, okay, let's change. Uh, let's get a different cultural view now. Um, so I've some sound bites now coming up from an interview I did with New York-based J-Max, who is another really, really nice guy, and he is a songwriter for pop music. He also writes children's music, lots and lots and lots of different things. I asked him for his views on the same subject.
Speaker 3:
My approach to how I handle song splits really doesn't change. If it's children's music or pop music, the process for working on both is very similar. I think it really comes down to more of my philosophy, which is really it's about fairness and wanting to create an environment where everyone feels like their contributions will be valued. And whether that's from the production standpoint or the songwriting, I think it's good to have that stuff laid out and taken care of from the beginning, have that stuff laid out and taken care of from the beginning so everybody understands what the percentages will be. I think the worst case scenario is when those things aren't discussed up front and then the song is already done, and that's when people start trying to parse out what their you know share should be. I generally think that if you're you know you're working on something and you're in the room, it should be kind of evenly split with everyone involved, you know.
Speaker 1:
What a fair guy, god. If everybody was like Dan and Jay, we wouldn't even be talking about this. It's so fair. I also asked Jay about production. I asked him this specifically because Jay's a top line writer. He's great with melodies, he's great with vocals, he's great with lyrics.
Speaker 3:
So I asked him his views on kind of how production should be split in the context of song splits.
Speaker 3:
50%, I think, should always go towards the production and the producer and then the other 50 should be split evenly among however many songwriters are involved in the session and you know, that might mean that somebody could potentially get, let's say, 25%, or even if there's more songwriters involved, let's say get 10% or 15%, and maybe that particular session their contribution was just a couple lyrics or a note shift or modulation or something. But at the end of the day, you know, I feel like a song is a part of everybody who was involved in it and sometimes small changes make a huge difference. So I just don't. I'd rather have, you know, 15% of a great successful song or project than have 100% of something that never went anywhere because people were fighting or couldn't agree or it never even got off the ground. So I think for me, the core values when it comes to something like that, like splits, is really just about fairness and cultivating an atmosphere where everyone feels like they'll be valued and they could let their creativity shine.
Speaker 1:
I see I told you he's a nice guy, didn't I? Cultivating an atmosphere of value. That's great, isn't it? That could be the name of this podcast, anyway, brilliant. Okay, let's go to our final guest of today. Let's cross-reference what we just heard from Jay and from Dan by going to EDM Breakout star Molly Morgan, also a UK-based songwriter, much like Dan. I mentioned earlier about some of the cultural differences in electronic music, whereby there is that kind of hard differentiation between track and top line. Let's see if Molly's experiences fall in line with that.
Speaker 4:
What I do is so say, someone approaches me and they want me to write a top line over a track. If it's like a fresh top line, so it's not a sample or anything normally it will be a 50 50 split and then we'll just put that through prs and then that'll be on the system then. So it's normally 50 50 if it's like a fresh top line okay, interesting.
Speaker 1:
Uh, molly is referring there to, you know, working with an empty track. She's working reactively on a top line and lyrics in reactivity to hearing a track and writing on top of it. But she also mentioned samples. Molly, you've opened a can of worms there, so I asked her to dig a little deeper into that subject. So what happens, for instance, if she receives a track and there is a sample on there that maybe needs replacing or creating with? What then happens to the song splits?
Speaker 4:
I don't know if this is right, johnny, to be fair, but this is just what I've been doing. If it's like a top line, that is like a sample, for instance, um, I might take less of a split, maybe if there's more people on the track to say if it's just like me, and so, for example, once I've worked with like two producers on a track, so there'll be three of us all together and it's not a fresh top line, it's like a sample then we'll normally split it. But the majority of time what we do is it's normally just me and one other producer and we just split it 50-50.
Speaker 1:
OK, so a little bit of context here. So we're referring to the song splits here, but of course the difference here with molly is that it may well be her voice that ends up getting used by a producer, by a dj, released on a label. So therefore her performance has value, as well as the actual songwriting process. So I asked her about upfront costs that she receives for her performance.
Speaker 4:
Oh, sometimes I can get an upfront fee as well. Um, but it depends on the situation and what like the producer's offering, like sometimes, for example, I've recently worked her performance. Oh, sometimes I can get an upfront fee as well. Um, but it depends on the situation what like the producer's offering, like sometimes. For example, I've recently worked on a track where they've given me a fee and also a. I think it was a 30 split because there was three of us on there, so usually it's 50 each, but then it does depend on, like, how many producers there are and also if it's a sample, etc. Ah, johnny, johnny, I hope that was OK. Honestly, probably my downfall is music, like the business side of things and sorting out royalties and stuff like that.
Speaker 1:
Oh, bless you, Molly. Molly, you're not the only one. There's many, many people struggle with this. That's why I'm doing this podcast, because there's so many mysteries around this subject and there's kind of no right or wrong way, is there, right? So, um, now, what molly was referring to the latter part, um of her conversation there was in relation to the recording as well as just the songwriting. So if, if, for example, in this particular case, molly is the primary artist on a release with a label uh, maybe she's already been advanced for that but if she is being bought out by a label for a release of the masters are owned by a record company or co-owned by a record company with a name producer, then they don't really want the vocalist to own any part in that recording. So they would then buy her out and pay for her performance, which is what she's referring to there.
Speaker 1:
Okay, so there is no standard answer to this subject. It varies between different styles and different cultures, but there are certain common patterns and if we were to look at this on a successful level, I very, very, very rarely hear professional songwriters squibbling over songwriting splits. It's very often people before they turn professional that worry about this stuff a little bit more, perhaps, than they should. One of the common denominators here is the early on conversation about this subject, if we just roll back a second to something that Jay said earlier.
Speaker 3:
I think it's good to have that stuff laid out and taken care of from the beginning.
Speaker 1:
And there we have it, the golden nugget of this episode laid out from the beginning. Now, if anybody's unclear as to what that really means, it could be something really simple like a piece of paper and a pen. It could be an email, it could be anything. But if you want to try and formalise it and just be really, really organised about it, you could use a song split sheet. If you're not sure where to grab one from, you can download one for free from my website, johnnyamoscom. That's J-O-N-N-Y-A-M-O-S, johnnyamoscom. Just click on Music Industry Resources and you will see in there a song split sheet. In fact, you'll see two. You'll see one for the song and one for the recording. Again, it's really important to always differentiate between those things. It's not just how are we splitting things, but what are we also splitting. Okay, that's episode one. That's Song Splits. I will see you again next time. Thank you for listening, and may the force be with you.