The Music Business Buddy
A podcast that aims to educate and inspire music creators in their quest to achieving their goals by gaining a greater understanding of the business of music. A new episode is released each Wednesday and aims to offer clarity and insight into a range of subjects across the music industry, all through the lens of a music creator for the benefit of other music creators. The series includes soundbites and interviews with guests from all over the world together with commentary and clarity on a range of topics. The podcast is hosted by award winning music industry professional Jonny Amos.
Jonny Amos is a music producer with credits on a range of major and independent labels, a songwriter with chart success in Europe and Asia, a senior lecturer in both music creation and music business at BIMM University UK, director of The SongLab Ltd and the author of The Music Business for Music Creators.
www.jonnyamos.com
The Music Business Buddy
Episode 3: From Temp to Titan - Denise Beighton's Journey to Becoming an Artist Manager
What does it take to transform from a part-time temp into an international renowned artist manager? Join us on "The Music Business Buddy" as we sit down with the incredible Denise Beighton from Upside UK, who navigated the highs and lows of the music industry from her early days at RCA during the Bucks Fizz Eurovision era to the monumental shift into Sony Music. Denise shares her humble beginnings and the joyous, sometimes heartbreaking experiences that shaped her career, offering a unique insider’s perspective on the dynamic world of music management.
As social media continues to revolutionize the music industry, how do artists maintain genuine connections with their audience beyond the music? Denise dives into this complex topic, shedding light on the importance of lifestyle and shared values in today's artist-fan relationships. From the impact of TikTok on musical careers to the intricacies of managing major label artists, Denise recounts her unexpected journey at BMG and the lessons learned from navigating industry politics and building strong relationships.
What is the secret sauce for fostering successful music careers in a rapidly evolving industry? Denise emphasizes the crucial role of trust and mutual respect in artist management, highlighting her experiences with artists such as multi platinum selling Dance Pop sensation Karen Harding. She provides invaluable advice on staying authentic, being consistently discoverable on social media, and the power of self-belief. Tune in for heartwarming stories, practical tips, and a fascinating insight into the mind of one of the most loveable women in the UK music industry, as Denise inspires all creatives to stay true to their talents and embrace the journey with confidence.
The Music Business Buddy. The Music Business Buddy Hello everybody, a very, very warm welcome to you. You're listening to the Music Business Buddy with me, johnny Amos, podcasting out of Birmingham, england. It's good to be here with you. I'm the author of the book the Music Business for Music Creators. I'm also a music creator with credits on a variety of major and indie labels, as a writer or producer sometimes both. I'm also a lecturer in music creation and in music business.
Speaker 1:Now, wherever you are, whatever you do, please consider yourself welcome to this podcast and to a part of this community. I'm here to try and educate and inspire music creators from all over the world in their quest to achieving their goals by gaining a greater understanding of the business behind music. Ok, so the focus of this podcast today is being an artist manager. Ok, so the focus of this podcast today is being an artist manager and, truthfully, the best way of understanding being an artist manager is to talk to an artist manager, and a very, very good one at that. So allow me to introduce you to Denise Baten from Upside UK. Upside UK are a bespoke management and record company and a consultancy company. They consult for a lot of major labels, but they also manage karen harding, uh, danny dearden moya, future kings, gold 88 pillows and many more.
Speaker 1:Denise is, uh and I'm sure she won't be saying this a veteran of the music industry, um, and a lovely, lovely and hilarious person. So, um, let's get this rolling. The first thing I asked to to denise is kind of you know how she got into management because she's been in the business for quite a long time, but you know, she didn't start out as a manager, and most managers don't start out as a manager. I mean, some do, right, you've got some really good young, emerging, up and coming managers these days, but generally speaking, it's not a role of a younger person. So, you know, I wanted to ask Denise, you know how she got started in the music industry. What was her, what were her first kind of steps into the industry, what did that look like and where did she go from there?
Speaker 2:And this is what she said Originally I started at RCA in the early 80s and Bux visit just won the eurovision and, um, that was, that was in the days where we had a chance in eurovision and they just won and basically they couldn't cope with the demand for the record so they bought in part-time temps, which I was one of them doing telesales and then what started just as a part-time, temporary job ended up being a 40, 40 odd year career. Um, which was amazing and and I mean back then it was actually it was. It was based in west bromley, the old rca depot, and they had the warehouse that with all the record stock down the downstairs and then all the offices, the, the sales office, the credit department, et cetera. We were all upstairs and so it used to be like it was quite a fun place to work and if you'd have artists come, like one day we had take that come and we took them around and showed them their records being picked and packed and sent out and all that. And for an artist it was. It was great fun to do, but, um, I just I, I honestly, because I always loved music anyway and I honestly couldn't believe that they paid me to do it. It was like, hey, I just sit on the phone all day long talking to record stores and enjoying myself, and it was like talking to like-minded people and you'd go on to your stuff.
Speaker 2:I mean, in the early days, one of the things that did get me was like, you know, it was kind of it was a major label and, um, there was so much good stuff that never got anywhere or never did anything and that would in. At first it was quite heartbreaking. As a music fan rather than an artist. It was quite heartbreaking because I'd get the new releases in and I'd play them in the office. This was afterwards I became manager of the department, so after a couple of years probably, because if you love something and you're good at it, then it all comes through.
Speaker 2:It goes hand in hand, doesn't it? So when I came to manage it and we'd get records in and we'd all go potty for one and we'd be playing it over and over again and then it'd do nothing. And then it was like we used to have another thing that we called the chairman's wife. And then it was like we used to have another thing that we called the chairman's wife. You know, you'd have some piece of rubbish that would land on your desk. And then you'd hear the chairman's wife loved it, so you'd got to push it even harder. Oh really.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's interesting.
Speaker 2:There were all those kinds of things. But I mean, I think the industry as a whole was great fun back then and, as I say, I think because I loved it so much, that's probably how come I got to get further and further into it, you know, until eventually RCA was bought up, first by BMG, and then Sony acquired it, and I was with them the whole time. So there were more companies in between as well. But during my time I think we saw more like titles, like when I was actually on the phones. At first we'd go rca can I help you? Then we became rca areola and there were like all these different things and the acquisitions and that. But eventually sony got it and they they've still got it now.
Speaker 1:So okay, well, that's so interesting. Okay, so you mentioned there denise about, you know, being a music fan and you know that's that's what gets us all into this business in one way or another, right through, whether it's working for a label or a publisher, or as a booking agent, as a music creator or whatever. We start out as music fans, we hopefully remain music fans. But at some point along the line usually early-ish on it starts to get a bit more kind of serious where and you know and you start to develop and sharpen your skill set and your understanding of the wider context of the business. At what point, you know, following on from that, did it start to feel to you like, wow, this is a career now, you know, was there something in particular that happened, or was it just something that happened organically?
Speaker 2:I think it was more organic. First I was on the phones, then they made me supervisor, then manager, and then the next promotion for that wasn't couldn't stay in West Bromwich, I had to then, um, go to London. And I think because I never made the actual move, I used to go to London on a Monday morning and come back on Thursday night and work from home on Friday. So because I never actually physically made the move, I stayed in a hotel all week. I used to come back to normal people and I didn't mix, I suppose, weekends and things with other record business people. So I never got blasé about it because everybody, all of my friends who had got very regular jobs, and that they were like oh, why are you so lucky? You go to London, you meet artists, you do this, you do that, and it was like so I don't think, like you know, it's like you you'd be on.
Speaker 2:I don't know, the day of the Brits or something, and there'd be people going, oh, I've got to go to that tonight, or what I'd do to get out of it, and I'd be so excited I could barely breathe. You know, it was like, oh, oh and it's like and, to be quite honest, probably the people going, oh, I've got to go tonight were probably as excited as me, but they wanted to look all uber cool and you know, oh, okay, okay.
Speaker 2:It was like because I think back then as well, I suppose, because I was the brummie in town and they were like, they were cooler Londoners and I think you know like, I struck up a friendship with Simon Cowell. Oh, yes, back then, this was when I first went to London and Simon he said he liked me because if he'd play a track in a sales meeting or whatever, I'd be like, oh wow, I love that or not, you know, but everyone else would sit there being yeah, ok, yeah, because nobody wanted to commit, nobody wanted to say in front of the group, oh, I love that. And then it went on to be a failure and you're so wrong. And then the one that you say you don't like ends up being the biggest record of the year. And you look, no-one wanted to look stupid, but I wasn't afraid of that if I was enthusiastic, it, we, it all came out and I think that was it, the excitement of of like, oh wow, this is it, you know, and it was kind of it, it was like another world and I just loved it and and I loved the, I love the atmosphere.
Speaker 2:I mean it's a lot different now if you go on a record label because everybody's sitting there in their little headphones and they're kind of experiencing the music that way. But then we all had offices, we had our doors open, we'd blast the music out and half the time you knew what was going to be a hit by the amount of people that came running in going. Oh my god, what's that?
Speaker 2:oh, really wow okay, and it was. It was like sometimes you'd be playing things and nobody would pay any attention, and then another time that you know like you've got half the building rushing in going. What the heck you, you know.
Speaker 1:Right, ok, so much more kind of community-related kind of level of thinking, which, ok, that's it. So, going back to that particular time. So you were, obviously you were friends and colleagues with Simon Cowell long before he was known on television as kind of like this bad guy kind of character and whatnot. Um, what was he like to work with?
Speaker 2:um, he must have been a real hard worker, I guess at that time, real kind of making his name for himself and that kind of thing well, funny enough, he, he wasn't particularly um, he, he used to roll into, he used to roll in the office about 11 o'clock, which is probably not a good. A good thing to say when I, when I was saying um, when he did he, but then I, I don't know if he had to stay till midnight, he would you know. So I suppose that's he wasn't a morning person put it that right.
Speaker 2:Okay, fair enough he wasn't a good morning person but he was absolutely brilliant to work with. He was, and in terms of which is where he's sort of part of his path, I suppose because Simon was the one I was doing sales, so I had to present our tracks to. You know the likes that half of your listeners probably wouldn't remember Woolworths and Our Price and um, oh, hmv's still going, I know. But I used to then present to to the um what they called the national accounts and Simon knew that he couldn't just give me a good record and say, go out and get that. It had to have a plot to go with it. And back then the plot was usually tv related and so Simon thought out of the box. He wasn't like other A&R people the way his head went. You know it's like um. You know. He used to always say to me then well, why would you make a fantastic record when the only people that get to hear it are your friends and family at a dinner party or whatever, when you're going hey, look at me, look what I've done this week. He said the general public, if they don't hear it, they won't buy it. And he was very much of that mentality and he knew what tools he needed to give me to go out and sell his records. Basically, which was a plot saying, um, oh, you know, it's on Anton Deck on Saturday morning, because you know, these days Anton Deck are the biggest Saturday night program, but back then they had the biggest morning programs because it was all about Saturday morning tv. If you were doing a pop record, um, and it, it was like, you know, so that's what you would be out to deliver. And then, and then of course, like, um, we had top of the pops back then, um, which that was, and it's very, very sad that there's not something you know, and I mean I'm not sure the tiktok and things are the same, but, um, top Pops. You could have a record go in the chart at 27 or something, and if it was great and you managed to get that slot on Top of the Pops, it could go from 27 to number seven or something by the actual chart, and so you used to know that that was such a great vehicle. Now you don't know what the vehicle is.
Speaker 2:It's very strange because even I think with most of the people I know who have gone on to become sort of big and successful on TikTok. Most of them don't know what gets them there. It's like I've had a couple of my friends go oh, we're loading this going, this is going to go viral, that's going to go viral. And then the one that they put up that they don't expect all of a sudden they've got, you know, 20 million views on it and they're going well, where did that come from? That wasn't the one I predicted.
Speaker 2:It's like um, I think I mean now we've got all those tools, we've got more tools to use, but it's kind of. Most people don't know how to harness them anyway. And I must confess, I think the majority of people are like that. Most people, either you know who are having a level of success on tiktok, or you you've heard interviews with like they don't know where it came from. They're like oh, I just uploaded this track that all my friends said was good and all of a sudden it went viral. And now look at me. You know I'm Olivia Rodriguez, or whatever.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it's difficult, isn't it? I mean, you know, I interviewed a lot of people in preparation for the book about this particular, about the subject of like audience development for an artist. And you know, it's almost like music is just, it's only a piece of how an artist connects with their audience through TikTok. A lot of it is perhaps through other things, such as lifestyle decisions, hobbies, values, shared interests, that kind of thing. It's almost like not that music's the backseat, it's always the sort of constant subtext, but at the same time, it's only a piece of what is connecting to people, which you know, is perhaps a shame in some ways, especially when the goal is to peddle music for artists, you know, but I guess that's just something that's shifted in recent times through social media.
Speaker 2:I think, yeah, I think it shifted. I think also, people's attention span has got lower. It's, it's um, like no, I very rarely, with any of my artists, very rarely, put out a record that's more than two, two thirty, two, forty minutes. It's like, um, people don't want any longer. And then you know it's, it's kind of, you know, I don't know where bohemian rhapsody would stand in this day and age as a brand new track, because you know it's it.
Speaker 2:It's like one of one of the things I find which, um, I do a couple of these judging things, like there's a coffee morning one that they do and they send you songwriter songs, they ask them to write about a topic, and it's like I very often find myself because I try and be as honest as I can I very often find myself telling them look, don't be so self-indulgent. You know you might want to hear this song go on for eight minutes, but I lost it after the first three. We have to work with what we've got, which is the things like TikTok and like Instagram and all that, but unfortunately sometimes and labels went through a point where they were oh, this person's got two million followers on TikTok, let's sign them up for a record deal, and then they might get two million on TikTok, but you look at the Spotify and they've barely got 100, you know, and it's not translating, and so I think people are doing things for the wrong reasons sometimes, you know.
Speaker 1:Let's just go back a little bit. So at what point did being an artist manager become your route? That started to then shift your career path into where you are now.
Speaker 2:It was a bit of an accident in a way, because I left BMG and at that point the compilation albums were really the thing going on at the time. So we were we'd done a few of that, a few of those at BMG. It was, in a way, easy. We came up with the creative, we came up with the creative, we came up with the track listing, which, of course, we knew the labels and we knew the politics. So we knew what we could put on, because everyone thinks with a compilation you just throw on anything you want to and that's it. You can do that now with your playlists on Spotify, but you couldn't back them with albums that you were going to sell Anyway. So we were doing these compilation albums and then, before I left BMG, we worked really closely with ITV because I'd given Simon the idea for Robson and Jerome. So if people haven't heard of Robson and Jerome then maybe they they should google it, because they actually had two of the biggest albums in the top 10 for the whole of the 90s.
Speaker 2:Um, they sold millions and millions to units and basically, um, simon, when he, when he saw that and he saw what a tv, the, the song was the fastest selling single. The first single was the fastest selling single ever. It was off a TV show and when Simon saw that he said we need to bring ITV in house so that we don't have to suddenly jump on these things. We can control it a little bit. So I ran the. He wanted me to run that aspect of the of the business. So consequently, I was working with ITV and I was having meetings with them two or three times a week and I got really good relationships there and um, anyway, we'd we'd left and um they phoned me up. They said we're making a TV talent show called Pop Star Survivals and will you manage? We're doing a girl band and a boy band. Will you manage the girl band that comes off it? And we said, yeah, sure, now that girl band happened to be Girls Aloud.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I remember.
Speaker 2:Which should be the end of the story. However, halfway through the series Louis Walsh had decided he was one of the judges and he decided that, oh, I think I'll take this girl band when they come out. And it was like we'd actually put in and ITV didn't want that, which was why they approached us in the first place. They didn't want one of the judges ending up being the management. But then Louis was in a strong position and he was kind of rough riding over them and it was like it was all a bit difficult. We'd also spent a lot of time going to the studio, being with the girls, meeting the girls and seeing what was coming out, and anyway it turns out um, the um, which shows probably how much I know. But we we sat after one of the meetings with the um with the girls in in the studio. I think they were recording the b-side to the sound of the underground and they put all 10 of the voices on to take off when they got kicked out of the competition. So we were with the girls and then afterwards we sat in a cafe just having a cup of coffee and anyway I said who my band would be and anyway those were the girls that seemed to be coming out. And so what we decided to do because we'd put in a lot of effort anyway and we'd we'd kind of um, we'd we invested, invested so much time we said, well, let's take these girls on, let's put a band together with with them. And so we put this band together called clear, and there'd been a show just before that called pop stars, where the um, the runners-up, liberty x, had ended up being actually long-term bigger than the winners. So, consequently, we went with these girls, we got them a deal with warner straight away, like literally immediately. Um, itv were very excited that we got that, we'd picked up these girls, so they were giving us mega support and it was, it was like it was. It was really, really good. But we, we kind of inherited these girls and it was great and it was kind of, in a way, it sort of coincided because what would have been our core business, which was the compilations, was kind of dwindling anyway with the introduction of iTunes and, like you know, people were talking about streaming then, although it wasn't a thing, it was like it was a concept that we were all aware was going to happen at some stage. And, anyway, warners.
Speaker 2:We had a single that went to 22 and a single that went to 23. And Warners had spent a million pounds at least and they wanted top ten records, so they ended up dropping the girls. We negotiated to get the album because the album was fantastic, the strings had been recorded at Abbey Road, it was a very, very expensive, classy, classy album and anyway. So we got the album, we got the videos and we went and licensed it to 22 countries around the world, which for us was a brilliant learning curve, because we'd been at record labels and when you're like both myself and Simon, my business partner he was head of marketing at Arista, I was sales and so you're in your little boxes and all of a sudden we're doing this management role, but we're doing international, we're doing our own radio plug-in, we're doing everything. And the girls they ended up having a seven-year career and, funny enough, they reformed again last year for Mighty Hoopla.
Speaker 1:Oh really.
Speaker 2:Yeah, they did the one show. It was fantastic. I was like, so full up, the girl band were Clear. By the way, c-l-e-a Clear okay, which, if you've found the album Identity Crisis, the tracks are so, so classy. It's like you know, wow.
Speaker 2:So then that's how we kind of got into management. And then we got, because we got our foot in the ITV door. Then they approached us with Journey South because they'd started the X Factor by then and Journey South came third, I think, in the third series, sorry in the third series, sorry in the second series. And they approached us because apparently they were Simon's favourites. They were on Simon's team but Simon absolutely adored them and Simon had told his team to get them somebody good and when my name came up he was like yes, yes. So we did them.
Speaker 2:And then, funny enough, karen Harding, who we manage today. Her manager had bought on the Journey South tour for Karen to sorry for another act and he wanted to put Karen on in the northeast because she's from Newcastle. He wanted to put Karen on in the northeast because she's from Newcastle, he wanted to put her on there. So we put her on three shows and anyway. So then I got to know Karen as a person long long before. So my managing her ended up being you know we were friends, she'd call me if she needed some advice. You know we were friends, she'd call me if she needed some advice, and it was like you know. So there was a trust thing there before we'd even started, you know, which was good.
Speaker 1:Wow. So in a way, you know, your route into becoming an artist manager was as organic as your route, you know, back in 82 in West Brom, in the call centre, where you kind of organically climbed through that being a music fan, understanding what was going on around you, building an even bigger understanding of where it all fits, getting your own ideas as to how you put it all together. And you're still managing Karen Harding now, aren't you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I mean Karen's what 32? I've known her since she was 16. And it's like you know, we just have a really good relationship. In some respects she treats her like a daughter, because I feel like you know, now she's got two babies, babies and that I get really excited around the kids and buy them easter eggs and stuff you are so lovely, denise that's nice.
Speaker 2:Oh, you ain't lovely me me touch up the nicest, nicest man in the business bless you, but no, I think, I think, to be honest, but for artist management, um, and I would say um, I mean we never. And some people think it's stupid, some people, you know, but we never sign an artist when we first take them on. We never sign a deal. We talk to them, there's an email saying what we'd expect and you know, kind of setting out the parameters I suppose, but we never bring the lawyers in. I mean, with Karen, the first time we brought lawyers in was when we were signing her record deal. We'd been managing her then for about two years, two and a half years, and it was like when you bring in a kind of third party into the relationship, ie a record label and publishers and God knows what else, then I think then it becomes necessary that you've got to protect not just yourself, protect all parties. But I would much prefer to get a relationship with an artist before I sign anything on paper. And you don't know, you know we, we recently, um, we recently worked with another girl and um, one-on-one. She was the nicest girl in the world, really, really lovely. But you, you have different ways of working and you, you kind of it's. It's quite funny because, like with with Karen, because we know her so well. We kind of go almost into auto drive and you know, if we've got issues and we're, and Simon and I are banging on a, a manager of someone she's working with, saying, oh, can we see the results of this? Can we see, can we? And then we'll go to Karen and go look, you know we've banged on at the management loads of times Could you send a direct message to the artist? And you know it's kind of we work together to get the result.
Speaker 2:And you know, unless you do that because I think sometimes artists and it's got to be a lesson They've got to learn to do things all for themselves. They have to, because if they sign a management deal or even a record deal for that and they think, oh, that's it, I'm made, they're not, they're far from it. And it's like any relationship Everybody has to work at their bit and if they're not, it's not any relationship. Everybody has to work at their bit and if they're not, it's not going to work. Generally, it's just not. You've got to have respect for each other as well, and it's hard, but that's why I prefer with the management, we took on more producers over lockdown, which was the first time ever that we've managed people that we hadn't even met, apart from on Zoom or whatever. I've never done that because I've always been a big person for relationships. I sit in a room with you and it gels or it doesn't, do you know? Yeah, and if it doesn't, you know, it's kind of it's quite funny.
Speaker 2:You've had people and, like we were approached by an artist that would have been kind of instant income because he was the singer of a band that was well-established, well-respected and everything and anyway, and then we ended up having three or four meetings.
Speaker 2:One of them was a label meeting and I just sat there and thought I can't work with this person and nice enough guy, but because of the level of success he'd had already, he got no hunger, oh. And it's like, well, actually, if you're just going to kind of drift through, he's like you know, we were being asked by the label, you know, when are you expecting to deliver the album? And he's like, oh, release schedules they're just something that people put out there and they can be moved and moved, so why put one in? And I'm like what? Okay, and you kind of reach a conclusion. So I think in the first place, the management. You know it's got to be. You've got to feel what they're feeling and you've got to believe in the music and believe in the person or the people. If it's a group, you know a collective.
Speaker 1:Oh well, and that's why you're so ruddy-bloody. Good at it, denise. So good for you. I like that philosophy. You're such a charmer, oh you know me. Two questions now to finish off off, two questions about emerging artists. What can, um, this is a big, big, big question, right? So just whatever you feel like is the right answer right now. You know, what can emerging artists do to enhance their chances of success?
Speaker 2:It's quite a hard open-ended question, isn't it?
Speaker 1:It's a very unfair question because it's a massive question. There's a lot to it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think they need to. The big thing I always say to everyone is be discoverable, be discoverable, be discoverable, be relatable. Because I know there's a lot of artists a lot of mine are guilty of it as well. It's it's kind of they. They think the only time they should put out any Instagram posts or TikToks or whatever is when they're releasing. All that looks then to their followers is that they just want to plug, and you know they only talk to them when they've got something to sell. It's wrong.
Speaker 2:Do personality things Make you discoverable as well as your music. And then you know, I know it's hard because a lot of artists are quite introverted anyway, but there's that old saying if you're not on the pitch you won't play the game. And you have to be on the pitch and there's many things. Even do what makes you comfortable. You know it's like if you're not fun and you're not a barrel of laughs, don't try and be that. Put out an honest little piece or an honest statement or something that shows who you are so that people the fans that are buying into you can recognise it.
Speaker 2:But I always say about be discoverable. If you can release music, release it frequently at the beginning. Try and look for people who might be good collaborators, because then you're doubling your chances and you're boosting your release radars and all of that Support each other as artists. Do you know? They're not competition. It's all like you see things. Competition, it's all like you. You see, you see things. I think um great example of that was um eminem and he he had um what was that collective he was. He'd done a couple of tracks with them, but basically they made oh yeah d12 or yeah, well, yeah, it was d12, wasn't it?
Speaker 2:well, they, they made a pact, before any of them had made it, that whichever one did, they'd bring the other with them. And it's kind of you know, I think everyone other artists feel afraid to support their peers. They've got to do it. They've got to. It's kind of it's essential because you know their peers. They've got to do it. They've got to. It's kind of it's essential because you know some of your fans go and follow another artist. That doesn't mean that they've gone off you, or you know, it's like you don't listen to just one person constantly. No, no, unless, of course, you're a Taylor Swift fan.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and even then, spotify is going to suggest other things that are similar anyway, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but I think be discoverable is the big thing and you know you can make the best record in the world. But if it's just sitting on a hard drive in your bedroom it's a waste of time, isn't it Be discoverable?
Speaker 1:I love that bedroom. It's a waste of time, isn't it be discoverable? I love that. Um. Final question, denise is um and let's think about this in uh, the question is what are the biggest mistakes that you see artists making? Now, there's a few different interpretations there. It could be kind of soft skill stuff, so, for example, people not maybe managing their time as effectively as they could be, or people saying the wrong things, or you know something like that, or it could be more on a sort of creative level or technical level. You know what are the most common things that you think, oh, don't do that. What springs to mind?
Speaker 2:to mind, I think, big things for me, like when they're trying to please the wrong people. You know, I think artists are naturally artists and creatives are naturally quite introverted. They tend to, you know, like, well, yeah, you're out there looking for approval, aren't you? Basically, and I think every artist I know and this is kind of probably without exception is if they upload something on YouTube or on Instagram or whatever, and they can have a hundred lovely comments and they get one comment that's not nice and that's the one that they home in on, and that's the one that they home in on and that's the person they want to please. I'm sorry, right, do you know? Like so, um, it's kind of if someone's saying, oh no, your, your voice is too whatever, too shrill or too high or too, everyone's got an opinion, but that one person isn't right. So be yourself, be who you are and who you feel comfortable with and the skin that you're comfortable in because it's the best one for you.
Speaker 2:And, I think, other mistakes, like you know, I think one thing I always, always drilled into my people from everything you know, from when I had the girl band at the very, very beginning, is if they're doing stuff, if they're doing like an interview, or you know they're going to radio, they're doing stuff. Be nice the whole time, not just when the microphone's turned on. It's like you know you walk into a reception, that receptionist is probably the most important person in the place. Don't think, oh, she's just a receptionist. You know. Be nice to everyone you meet in there. Be nice to the cleaner. Be nice to the receptionist, you know. Be nice to everyone you meet in there. Be nice to the cleaner. Be nice to receptionist. Be nice to whoever's fetching your cup of coffee while you're waiting for your interview. It doesn't hurt and it just is. You know, if you just switch it on the minute the mic goes on, then everybody knows it's fake. They've all seen it firsthand and it's kind of you know. Go going back to to simon carl on this.
Speaker 2:That was one thing. Simon was like he treated and we we were bmg, like you know. We were in next door offices. At one point he treated the cleaner with the same respect as he did the chairman of bmg and I always loved that about him and I think it's a quality because it's like I mean it's it's nerve-wracking for artists as well to go in, so if they've warmed up the crowd, if you like, on the way in, then they're halfway there anyway. Do you know, it's not just a question of being nice, it's a question of making feeling more comfortable the second. They sit down as well, and I think you know it's kind of.
Speaker 2:And when you say about as well, managing your time properly, most creatives are off on a tangent every two minutes. So if you know that you're not going to finish whatever you've been needing to do, whether you know you're a producer mixing tracks or a vocalist that's got to lay something down, have a list and get it done. Because it's like you know, creatives just go off in any direction and I know, um, well, one of one of my producers actually, um, he, he could go, he could go four or five days and go. Do you know what, denise, I've done absolutely nothing, because every time I go to do something, I get distracted by something else.
Speaker 2:The distractions, especially when you're creative and you've got to do a track or you've got to write a song or you've got to do something. The distractions are quite welcome because you don't want to put yourself there, but eventually you'll find that there's there's so many. It never ever gets done and you know you could be that person writing a song a day, but you don't know, unless you put your, put your mind and actually go for it. It's um, you're not going to do that, just suddenly wandering off, going through, flicking through tiktoks or flicking through. You know it's.
Speaker 1:Oh God, absolutely it's not going to give you the inspiration.
Speaker 1:No, no, no, that's it. That's it. That's a very good point. There's a lot, of, a lot of good, good values and good teachings here. Denise, I really really appreciate this. Oh, thank you, I really do. Thank it's um. Is there anything else you want to add? Or I'm just mindful of time and your time and and whatever else, and uh, but, uh, but is there anything else that you'd want to add to uh, any, any thoughts or any sort of advice or anything like that?
Speaker 2:no, I'd just say to to artists, to believe in yourself, because if you don't believe in yourself, then no one else is gonna do. You know it, what people? People do want to hear you, they do want to know what you're doing. But you've got to believe that. You know there's someone out there that wants it and if you don't believe it, then it's never gonna. It's never gonna.
Speaker 1:Okay. So really insightful, lovely talk there with Denise, where she was really open about how she almost really accidentally and organically slipped into being a manager, which is very interesting because by the time that came around for her she was clearly so prepared to be able to take on that role and just swim with it and do so well as she has done and is doing with it. It's just so interesting to hear that kind of everyone's got their own story right, their own kind of step into the role that they have, and it's just interesting to hear where it came from, you know. So anyway, final thought, because thought, because you know there was many, many little golden nuggets in what denise said there. Uh, but let's just roll back to this one.
Speaker 2:It's probably the most important thing I'd just say to to artists to believe in yourself.
Speaker 1:Let's just play that again to believe in yourself and there we have it, the most important message of all. So easy to lose sight of how important that notion is Just self-belief. I know it's not easy, but it's possible, isn't it? Anyway, I won't get all preachy on you. I'm going to leave you for now. Thank you for being here for this. See you next time. May the force be with you. The Music Business Party. The Music Business Party Christmas party. The music Christmas party.
