The Music Business Buddy
A podcast that aims to educate and inspire music creators in their quest to achieving their goals by gaining a greater understanding of the business of music. A new episode is released each Wednesday and aims to offer clarity and insight into a range of subjects across the music industry, all through the lens of a music creator for the benefit of other music creators. The series includes soundbites and interviews with guests from all over the world together with commentary and clarity on a range of topics. The podcast is hosted by award winning music industry professional Jonny Amos.
Jonny Amos is a music producer with credits on a range of major and independent labels, a songwriter with chart success in Europe and Asia, a senior lecturer in both music creation and music business at BIMM University UK, director of The SongLab Ltd and the author of The Music Business for Music Creators.
www.jonnyamos.com
The Music Business Buddy
Episode 7: The Journey of Artist Development with Sarah Nagourney
Ever wondered how rising stars in the music industry hone their unique sound and build their careers from the ground up? In this episode of Music Business Buddy, we promise to equip you with the essential tools and insights that underpin artist development. Join us as we delve into defining an artist's identity and sound, crafting early work that resonates with audiences, and much more. We’re thrilled to be joined by Sarah Nagorny from Glassbeat Music in New York City, an accomplished songwriter and artist development strategist, who shares her extensive experience in shaping artists' sounds, live setups, and career paths.
Exploring the vibrant live music scenes of New York City and London, we dig into the evolution of an artist's style and the invaluable lessons learned from live performances. Sarah shares personal anecdotes and professional insights, emphasizing the importance of artists developing their unique voices instead of merely imitating their idols. We’ll also touch upon the practical benefits of self-recording, empowering vocalists to refine their craft independently with modern recording technology. The balance between honing vocal skills and maintaining individuality is a recurring theme you won’t want to miss.
Navigating the complex landscape of image and branding in the music industry, we contrast iconic artists of the past with today’s stars leveraging social media to connect with their audiences. From creating memorable logos to sourcing unique clothing and maintaining a robust online presence, Sarah offers practical tips on standing out in a crowded market. We also discuss the challenges of industry relationships and the importance of patience and originality in achieving long-term success. Tune in for a deep dive into the quality of music as the ultimate driver of opportunities and triumphs in the music industry.
The Music Business Buddy. The Music Business Buddy Hello everybody, very warm welcome to you. You're listening to the Music Business Buddy, with me, jonny Amos, podcasting out of Birmingham in England. I'm the author of the book the Music Business for Music Creators, available in hardback, paperback, ebook format. I'm a music creator, a songwriter, a producer. I am a senior lecturer in both music creation and music business. Wherever you are, whatever you do, please consider yourself welcome to this podcast and to a part of this community. I'm here to educate and inspire hopefully, anyway music creators from all over the world in their quest to achieving their goals by understanding the business behind music.
Speaker 1:Okay, so the focus for today is artist development. Now, this is a big subject, right? This is a really, really big subject because artists are constantly faced with questions like you know, who are you, where do you fit in the landscape of the music industry, what is your sound, et cetera, et cetera. And that's not just from, like you know, labels, or publishers, or producers or whoever. It's journalists, it's PR people, it's bloggers, it's content creators, it's all sorts of people. And then, ultimately, of course, the fan base In order for an artist to be able to directly appeal to a fan base, whether it's mainstream or niche or whatever it is. People have to understand who the artist is, what's their message, what is their music about? What do they represent? That's a lot of stuff, right, and it's very rare, very rare, if not completely unseen, for an artist to be fully developed very, very early on in their career. It takes time, right, and so you know what. What is it that helps to define a recording artist, you know? Perhaps it's genre definition or cultural, stylistic, technological traits of their music. Maybe it's the values that they hold, the message of their music. Maybe it's the values that they hold the message in their music. I know every song is different, but maybe, if we look at a lot of successful artists, their early body of their work was conceptual. It's cohesive, it had some kind of meaning to it that resonated with a lot of people.
Speaker 1:What about an artist's sonic identity? How do they go about finding that? What about their branding? What about their image? I'm running out of breath that. What about their branding? What about their image? I'm running out of breath. We need an expert Now. I'm going to level with you everybody.
Speaker 1:When it came to deciding to do an episode on this very important subject, there was a lot of people I could turn to, but my favourite person, the number one person that I wanted to pick for this, was a lady called Sarah Nagorny from Glassbeat Music in New York City. She is one of the most impressive people I've ever met in the music industry. She's a good example for females in the music industry. In fact, no more than that, she's a good example for absolutely everybody in the music industry. Sarah is a songwriter. She is also an artist development strategist, and when I say strategist, I mean like everything. So she's an incredible songwriter. You know she's got a list of like huge credits. Feel free to Google her, sarah Nagorny. Have a look at all the people that she's written for and it's not just from you know artists from many moons ago. She's got loads of editorial support. She's got her finger on the pulse of exactly what is going on in the landscape of the music industry in the 2020s.
Speaker 1:She works from the ground up by working with artists very, very, very early on in their career, helping them to shape their sound, figure out what kind of songs they need in their catalogue, what their live setup should look like, and then shopping them, you know, and taking them to the right record companies or to publishers or to be working in the room with the right producers. She's not somebody that's, you know, scared of, like jumping on a plane and flying to somewhere else, completely you know, and going right, okay, this should happen and that should happen. And she, she's just, she's brave, she's courageous, she's an amazing songsmith and I've witnessed firsthand what she's like in the room. A few years ago when I first met her, I was in New York. I was in a session co-writing with an artist that Sarah was developing, in a session co-writing with an artist that Sarah was developing, and I was mesmerised by what Sarah does in a room, not just as a writer but just steering the direction of the whole purpose of a song and how it works for the artist, where it ends up, what role it can play.
Speaker 1:She is just amazing, from start to finish, getting the before. We even kind of started with the song to then getting it over the finish line and finding its audience and getting it some great dsp editorial support and just helping the artist to develop and find their sound. So, anyway, enough from me. I I've done a fantastic little interview with sarah where she's talked really openly, uh, especially about a duo she's working with right now that I know she's been going to to nashville quite regularly to work with um. It took me a few weeks to kind of try and sit down with sarah and find the right time because she is so active, she's so busy. But anyway, I will play the interview now. I hope you enjoy it. I'll check back in with you at the end well, thank you, I'm very happy to be here.
Speaker 2:Thank you for inviting me to do this oh no, no, gosh, not at all.
Speaker 1:The honor is mine, sarah. Um, okay, so the the first question. There's five questions. First question um what attributes do you look for when considering if you would like to work with an emerging artist?
Speaker 2:You know, I think the most important thing for me when I check somebody out is their point of view. I think there's nothing that you can. There's nothing like having a unique point of view. You can write lots of good songs, but if it's not from a perspective that's unique to you or unique to the artist, um, then it's not. It's not going to to get through. You know, there's a lot of noise. There's so much product out there, um, the last you know couple of.
Speaker 2:I've worked with a lot of different artists. One that I worked with for quite a while. With him, he was just such a ridiculous position at 18 and and he would pick up a you know a didgeridoo that he'd never seen before and you know a couple of minutes he'd figure out how to play it and he had this cool voice. So I mean things like that. Also, he was 18, so his point of view wasn't really developed yet. Um. With some other artists I've worked with they the thing is helping them capture it, even if I hear it they may not know that that's the point of view that's going to cut through the noise, you know, but I think that's that's like an important thing. I made some notes for myself, um, and I also really want at least the germ of a good songwriter. You know they don't have to be fully formed, but they have. It's better if there's someone who either makes notes in a notebook or has little licks in the morning.
Speaker 2:Oh, I think this is a good idea. It encords ideas, work ethic huge one on the list, gigantic. Some people are just oozing with talent, but they don't work that hard, you know. And some people might not have as much talent and you know they're out there in the world, really famous people. They're talented enough, shall we say, but they work like the dickens. They just work so hard. And I think if I see that someone really has that focus and willingness to, to kill and go for it, I think that's a really big thing. Um, I mean, like you're just writing a love song. There's so many love songs out there. But one of the artists I worked with wrote about breaking up with a friend, um, which I thought was kind of unique. I mean, it's been done, but it was kind of fun. It wasn't just writing about a guy, it was writing about a best friend and I thought that's kind of a fresh way to look at a breakup, you know.
Speaker 2:So, things like that, like slightly different outlooks on you know, on what's typical, and I think you know, think I would really like and it doesn't always happen to see a great performer, I would say, in Nashville. The great news is they perform all the time down there. It's made very easy for them. It's at least 50 venues in that smallish city and they can play in these little dumps to get their act together all the time. I think London's like that. It's got a lot of little venues. New York has become terrible, by the way. It's terrible. Most of the clubs have closed. It's crazy.
Speaker 1:Oh, really, in the village as well.
Speaker 2:Well, yeah, there's a couple of the old ones, the Bitter End and Lion's Den or whatever. On Bleecker Street there was the Rockwood and there were three Rockwoods and only one of them remains. Now Brooklyn's become much better. It's got a lot more venues now than Manhattan does, but for some reason live music just didn't. I don't know, didn't make enough money for people or something, so they closed a lot of the venues. But anyway, so I would just say, being a good performer, at least having the willingness to work and hone your live show, because if I meet someone when they're 18, they may not have had that much experience, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a tendency sometimes for them to kind of to create music that is similar to the music creators that inspire them, the artists, the writers, the producers that inspire them to want to make music. But at what point can an artist begin to find their own style? Um, you know, is that a problem that you come across? Uh, for instance, I, I often kind of say to an artist you know, this is what inspired you and got you here, but we need to get you not necessarily away from that, but we need to springboard from it into this new area so we can find where you sit. You know, how do you, how do you handle that, and is it something that you come across?
Speaker 2:You know it is a difficult one. I mean, just looking at some famous people, you know dylan listened to woody and hank, williams and elvis. Obviously he didn't imitate them at all, he had his own sound right away. Uh, springsteen I just look some of these ideas up uh, roy orbison, chuck berry, dylan, the beatles, you know, obviously, once again, I think that it's sort of hardwired, you know, I I do think imitating before you can create is real. But it is hard for some people to let go of sounding like mariah carey or whatever. You know, and I think it is going to get in your way if you don't sort of wake up in the morning being you in a way.
Speaker 2:You know yeah, and I think you know, I I think it's hard. I mean, I I feel there's some artists that, like one that I worked with for a while, he just had his own sound right from the get-go. I I know he had heroes, um, but he really his voice was so unique, um, and I think some artists do sound similar to others. There is kind of a movement right now, this kind of sad girl pop thing going on, and they do all sound kind of similar. So where the uniqueness may happen is in the production or in the storyline, you know. But I mean, I think it is a problem. A lot of people do sound. There is a lot of similarity between people right now and I think, certainly in country, I listen to some of these records and I just I can't tell the difference between those artists, you know.
Speaker 2:So yeah, I think, just answering that question, I think the good ones really have their own voice right early on and they don't take voice lessons. You know, sorry vocal teachers out there and they don't take voice lessons. You know, sorry vocal teachers out there. But a lot of the time the people that I work with who've had voice lessons from age 10 or something like me, it does kind of smooth out all the things that make you unique. And voice lessons are wonderful, but it's really a good idea to hold off and get your unique sound together first and then, you know, then get the voice lessons a little bit later once you're kind of you. At least, that's what I've found to be true. It's like a lot of theater singers they get a lot of training early on and they have amazing skill but they're not very.
Speaker 1:It's hard for to find a distinctive sound between you know well, maybe, maybe that's is that, perhaps because the, the teachings, the style of teaching is standardized and not so much customized. Therefore, it's difficult to kind of does often happen early, when someone has talent and sometimes it smooths out all the rough edges which could make them sound more distinctive.
Speaker 2:Interesting, interesting that I have noticed. I mean, for example, that the guy I worked for a long time he didn't have a voice lesson until he was like 20, or maybe I gave him his first voice lesson. What a cool voice he had, with all the flaws and everything.
Speaker 1:Right, okay, and so then at that stage, once you started to work on his vocals with him, was it more about kind of preserving it rather than correcting it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, Stamina, intonation, being able to sing in front of a rock band, which is a big project. You know it's hard to be heard over a drummer behind your head.
Speaker 2:You know you're doing these little rooms. They're not up in stage behind glass, they're like right behind your head, as you know. So it's a hard thing to learn how it's like an inner sense of pitch, to know how the voice you know sounds without maybe exactly hearing yourself as well as you should. Of course, in-ear technology is really useful too. You know that wasn't around when I was a performer, which I want to mention. I did perform for many years.
Speaker 1:Yeah, okay. So, Sarah, you've just mentioned something really interesting there about kind of, you know, you've got your performance background or the songwriting or the development work you do. But you just mentioned something that I've completely taken for granted until this moment, which is the ability to be able to sort of sing over or with a band. I, you know, I started doing that as a teenager and I never knew any different and and and, so I don't really have a base of comparison from my own perspective, but that's a thing right, that's a big problem for a lot of vocalists.
Speaker 2:I mean, really, a number of vocalists I've worked with really had a problem with it, because they sound beautiful, they record beautifully and then they have to get up in front of a loud band and it's very hard because they don't have the experience really. And you started young. Um, for example, I would talk more about this duo I'm working with in nashville. Both of them have been singing live it seems like since they were infants, because I just did a festival with them. They had eight gigs in three days and their voices were tired. They were doing one hour shows like three times a day at different venues. Um, but um, they're troopers. I mean they didn't have any problem. I mean they didn't have a drummer behind them, but sometimes they couldn't hear themselves. But their pitch was awesome and I know if you put a drummer behind it wouldn't make any difference. But they started young okay, so that's well.
Speaker 1:I mean, let's, let's use the duo that you mentioned there as a case study, if it's okay. So one of the things that you know, one of the age-old sort of problems, if you will, in artist development is having the artist, you know, find their sound. You know, and people find it in different ways, through experimentation or trial and error or process of elimination or just whatever it might be for different people. But you know, how have you kind of taken that approach, uh, with the duo that you're working with right now, for example? You know, have they, would you say they've developed their sound, yet is it an ongoing thing? Or because this, it's only something that has to kind of be present for their first era of their career? Right, they can evolve after that. But that initial period of launching an artist hey, this is what this artist does, you know do you find that? How do you develop and find that sound with them? Is that through arrangement and production, or is it through songwriting or through something else?
Speaker 2:I really think it's all of the above. I mean, I think sometimes people are great players and that's like a John Mayer, that's his thing and he also has a cool sounding voice. Sometimes being a great player is a handicap, because you're so into being like a virtuoso, it kind of overrides the artist. Singing artist thing, and with the duo it's early days. We started writing a few months ago. Singing artist thing, and with the duo it's early days. We've just started. We started writing a few months ago. They did their first gigs in the Montauk Festival, which was this past weekend, may 16-19.
Speaker 2:We're going to go in the studio in July and I'm really bringing in someone I trust a lot who has had a lot of experience. He's from New York but he's been living in Nashville for 30 years. He was keith erpin's guitarist and musical director for many years, so he has like he's got like a kid from the bronx who's got the ears for all music. But he you know, when I say I want to do a mix of zach bryan, uh daisy jones and the six and, uh, cheryl crow, it makes perfect sense to him because that's kind of what I think is the lane of this band. But I think finding a sound is often and I think, by the way, they're on their way with their instincts, my instincts and the people I'm bringing in and I'll play that to you later.
Speaker 2:But I'd say with some other artists, like the younger ones, it's often more of a challenge because, again, they're imitating, they're listening to some rock band, mcfly or whatever that they listened to when they were kids and they want to sound like that. Getting them out of that and into their own skin can be a challenge and sometimes a huge challenge. You know, with another artist I work with, it was very much about production. This other artist was very good at recording themselves and that helps.
Speaker 2:By the way, I recommend that everyone learn how to record their own vocals. Big big thing to know how to do, because if you're always going to the studio and waiting for somebody to record your vocals, you know it's. You know like you could do a guitar vocal at home or someone could send you a track to sing to, but you have so much more control over what you're doing on the mic and what you're, how you're coming across, and trial and error at home for hours is so much better than being with a red light on, sing a vocal three times. Thank you very much.
Speaker 1:Goodbye right, very good point it's something I talk about a lot, sarah as well, to a lot of different people, just purely because it's so much easier to be able to achieve that these days, right, and there's less commercial recording studios than there's ever been before. There's more remote technology than there's ever been before. There's more remote technology than there's ever been before. It's kind of a no-brainer in some ways, isn't it? It's just that the advantages of being able to self-record as a vocalist, you know, and it's the comfort thing as well, right, you know, being able to be at home with your favourite lamp on, or whatever it is that works for you, yeah, no-brainer, it's a great, great thing.
Speaker 2:And also, I think you just get to be better. I mean, you can hear your intonation. You could say, no, I meant to sing it with a little more air. You're not in front of somebody who's you know tapping their fingers like hurry up and let's get this done. I'm saying that's how people are, but you know what I mean. If you're in a studio, everyone's time is valuable. If you can, it's so easy. Now buy a decent mic, for can you get a decent mic for three or 400 pounds, right? Oh yeah, or you know even less. I mean, I have a what's it called? A blue a little blue.
Speaker 1:It sounds pretty good. It's a hundred bucks.
Speaker 2:Wow. So just to record at home? But just get good at it. You can do it with garage bandit and your mac, you know, just to learn the skill and I think in terms of honing your own sound, talking about, you know having a direction it's hugely important because you can really work on the way that your vocals come across. You know my most recent artist I was working with. She always recorded her own vocals almost nine out of ten times and I think it made a huge difference because she really hugged the mic and she understood how to make her sound unique, because she spent so much time doing it by herself.
Speaker 1:That's interesting. So that vocalist that you mentioned there, was she just recording a dry sound or was she kind of doing some edits and post-production herself and kind of doing that part of it as well?
Speaker 2:know I I think mostly just just putting down sections. But um, because one time she did something for me when I was studying audio engineering and sent me like 400 pieces of vocal. I was like oh my god, I don't know what to do with all of this and then I gave it to a friend of mine. I said, could you clean? You clean it up? But you know she's used to working with pros who piece it all together. But I think you know it's just a great thing to know how to do and it'll help you develop your sound a lot and it doesn't cost very much.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a good point. Yeah, it's a good point, sarah, just thinking on the same subject there, of this kind of you know, of an artist kind of finding their sound. Um, the question is often, you know, how do you know when you get there, right, you know it's like it has an artist kind of found their initial early career sound because they've released something and it's got some traction online and there's some editorial support on spotify or whatever. Or is it a moment where an artist kind of says do you know what this really feels? Like me and I'm really comfortable. Like you know, at what point do you know that that sound has been?
Speaker 2:found. I think it's both things that you said. I mean, a few artists I've worked with have had a lot of editorial support and one artist I'm thinking about who I think should be going a more artistic direction and she keeps coming back to this pop thing and I've known her for a long time. I'm like don't do that. You know what makes you. You is very, very cool and arty. Don't try to be dualipa, you know it's. It's funny, but even artists that I've known and are excellent and really have a sound, sometimes they struggle, admitting to themselves that they already know who they are because they want to be more successful or more pop or something. I think I'm getting away from your question a little. No, no, no, I think it's all of the above, I think, and some of them have had a lot of editorial support, which helps tremendously, of course, to say, oh, this is working.
Speaker 2:You know, with my duo and I don't want to say too much about it, but I've been pretty quiet trying to get it developed. I don't really want. It's a small Nashville's a small town, but I took it to like a couple of in-the-know people who I trust to keep it under their hat and they went like holy moly, this is something new. I don't think anybody's doing anything like this, and it was kind of like um cool, because that town has something called the row. Have you heard about it?
Speaker 2:oh yes music row, you know. So I went to these guys on the row and they said oh, you know, so you can edit this out, whatever they were like you know. And they started telling me the bands that have been around in the past and there ain't nobody doing this now. And I felt like, without putting it out too far, I just got some big people to go.
Speaker 2:I think you got something going and that's's, of course, lucky, because I've been in the business so long I can get that kind of feedback right. But for younger artists, I mean, I think you can take it to your friends uh, you know, trusted people that you you think you know some of my artists will play it to better known writers or something and say do, which of these five songs should I release? And sometimes they put it on on instagram and they'll go hey, hey, guys, I've got these three songs, which do you vote that I put out next? You know, I think it's great to go to your audience and ask their opinion. So these are all ways to get feedback, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and people.
Speaker 2:If you have a decent Instagram following I don't mean giant, it could be 5,000 or 8,000 or whatever you can get people will give you feedback. You'll go no, that song is more you or I'll put that one out second. I mean, we're actually going to put something out on Instagram for a title of a song that myself and the artists the duo are disagreeing on the title I have a more pop title and they said okay, we'll put it up on Instagram and see what people think. You know, it's actually cool. It's like let's get people's opinion Like oh yeah, that's a stupid title. Oh, I much prefer that title. You can go to your audience and ask opinions. I think that's a really cool thing about social media that you can. You know, provided you feel you're in a safe environment. You know, like you know, I TikTok. I don't maybe TikTok, but Instagram seems to me a little more nurturing, shall we say?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'd go along with that, and that's a great way of using that platform. Actually, it also encourages a sense of ownership, doesn't it? You know, once the people that chipped in and shared their opinion on what title it should be, by the time it gets released, they get that kind of hey, it's called that song because of me, and that's nice.
Speaker 2:I think that's true. It gets your audience involved. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you can do the same thing with artwork. You say, hey guys, which cover art do you prefer? And then they'll set up a little thing where they can vote, and then you have votes from your audience on which cover is the right cover for the song Well's?
Speaker 1:that's a very neat segue into the next question, actually, sarah, because the I want to ask you about kind of, uh, the subject of kind of. You know, at what point does branding an image become a, a component when developing an artist? You know, is it always something that comes after? You know, the, the, the narrative and the message and the values are built and the, the songs are there, or, you know, or is it something which is used early on as a nucleus to get the music direction, or does it vary? What's your opinion on when the right time is for that? Yesterday, okay.
Speaker 2:Immediately. It's immediate. Nowadays it's so immediate I'd really say day one. I think social media is just everything. Now you can do so much with social media.
Speaker 2:I'm not as fond of TikTok, and that's just because I feel like it gets stupid a lot of the time. It encourages a lot of dumb stuff, but I know artists use it successfully and that's a great tool, um, but of course I understand how useful it can be, um, but I do tend, I just I like instagram, as I said, I do feel it's more nurturing, but I think I think it's me. See, I made some notes here. You know, I think it's the whole package. You know you really are so important that you have your sense of who you want to be and that can change.
Speaker 2:I mean, you know, look at the great ones, bowie and Madonna or whatever. Their image was so clear from the get-go and they didn't have social media but whatever they could use. Bowie was a master of image and Madonna, always changing with the times, she always seemed to be a little ahead of the time, though she was just going down to the Lower East Side in New York City and checking out what everybody was wearing. She's, you know, but she was a master of knowing what was cool and hip a little bit before everybody knew it. So she was a master of image really from day one, and I think you have to do it. You know, hopefully you can do it right away. If your image is nerdy and wear glasses and stuff, that's an image too, you know.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you've used an interesting example there of Madonna, kind of, you know, rushing down to Lower East Side, right, what are people wearing? And right, that should therefore inform my approach as to what I look like next, or whatever. Perhaps the same could be said, therefore, for, um, social media on a much more kind of amplified, magnified scale, uh, or maybe even, I don't know, uh, new york fashion week, right, what are people wearing? Okay, that might be a bit abstract, right, but, you know, are the answers always in observation? You know, is there something you know? I can, certainly I can think of artists, over the years that I've worked with, that have had that kind of interesting quirk about them, um, or, you know, let's take, for example, I don't know, harry styles, for example. Uh, when he started to, ah, it means amazing, isn't he? Uh, on a multitude of levels, he's amazing every way.
Speaker 1:Oh my god, he's the best uh, but his, his style has also worked for him. It's endeared him to his audience because it's a bit different from what you know most young guys his age would be would be wearing, which you would have to say has been a successful element for him. I know it's more so about the music and all that kind of side of it, but his image has been very interesting. I didn't mean to focus the question around him exactly, but he's a good example as such. Totally, you know so it's.
Speaker 2:I think the British have always been so great at this. Anyway, the Brits just really have a sense of style. I love his image. You know he could do anything he wants. I mean he wears skirts, I mean he could do anything he wants, but he has such a cool image for sure.
Speaker 1:You've got to be brave, I think, with image, haven't you? You know, artists have to be brave at some point and go right. Do I feel a little bit silly wearing this? Well, if the answer is yes, it's probably going to look pretty good on stage or at least be memorable. Um, you know, uh, but uh, you know, there's many artists that we can think of. They go well, you know, because he or she wore that over there that helped them to do this and do that over there, and there's certain outfits, uh, that you know, people remember and go oh, wow, yeah, I said I, I I associate that with this time or this era or whatever. But usually the most memorable things are the things that are out of the curve, right, that aren't fashionable at that particular time, but OK. But in this era, you're saying that has to be something which is ready now.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean it doesn't have to be extraordinary costuming and you can go to thrift shops to buy stuff. You know, there's so many thrift shops in England, wow, I was there last year and I couldn't believe the proliferation of thrift shops. You can find cool stuff inexpensively, I think. You know, just try to do something that amplifies who you are. You know, it doesn't have to be crazy off the chart, but something that's more than just wearing a t-shirt, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:I mean again, being wearing a t-shirt in a rock band is is fine too, but you know, I I think just talking about branding also. You know, get a logo done, it's not, it's not that hard. You can even get the software for $100 or whatever. That is yeah yeah, yeah. And you know you could have some kind of a logo, have some kind of a website. Maybe people don't look at websites that much, but it's useful to have and it's not expensive to do it yourself.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, now there are AI programs that will help you make your own website. I think you just need to have it all. You need to have a website and you need to be up on all social media platforms. Good to have a logo, because when you're performing, you know you've got your name in some interesting letters. Good to have a banner when you're performing, you know, when you get up on stage, people can see your name and there's like a QR code if they want to give you a tip or something you know, or they want to look you up. It's everything. You've got to do it all.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, it's that kind of you know, in many ways, I kind of I kind of feel quite sorry for a lot of younger emerging artists in this day and age because, as good as they have it and they, you know, there's so many things that they have to be aware of. Or you know that that saying of how artists have to be multifaceted in this day and age, which to be, which, to a certain extent, is very, very, very true. However, um, it's a bit unfair in some ways that they have to be because there's so many things that they have to know about. You know, um, and it can be a lot, it could be be quite overwhelming, I think, for a lot of young artists. Do you find that?
Speaker 2:I think it's really overwhelming. I totally agree. I mean I've known some artists. They're spending all their time either on doing covers or doing content and they should really be performing and writing songs, but there's so much responsibility on their shoulders to take care of all those things. So it is a lot. I don't envy it at all. I mean, on one hand, I wish it was available to me when I was a young artist, because it would have been so much easier to put your stuff out and get feedback. But on the other hand, you're kind of working 24-7 on this and if you're not, it's a problem because you need to be. You've got to really be a workaholic on this project.
Speaker 1:It's a problem because you need to be you know, you've got to really be a workaholic on this project, you know, on this music business thing. Oh yeah, Isn't that the truth? Ok, so final question, Sarah, and it's a big question, right? So you know there's a lot. There's a lot to this, I guess, in some ways, but what are the biggest mistakes that you notice emerging artists making? Are there any patterns in behavior that you think, oh, this would be useful for people to avoid?
Speaker 2:Well, I think we talked a little bit about sounding a little too much like other people, you know is a problem. You know, you've got to really listen to your own self and I think you see all these bands that start to have success, or artists, and then whoever helped get them there a shinier penny comes along and offers them stuff and they ditch their people, uh, and often it doesn't work out or bands break up because they're going to be solo artists, because they're now they're, they're so good it's like they believe they're on publicity too much or something. You know, yeah, I think that is a that is a problem, um, because you know. You know, even if you don't want to work with the people, or you don't think that is a that is a problem, because you know, you know, even if you don't want to work with the people, you don't think that the people that brought you to how far you got are the only people you should have in the mix.
Speaker 2:Maybe keep them in the mix and bring in people that are, you know, better connected or whatever, or in the right. You know, geographic location, geographic location, um, you know, but I, I've seen that, uh, just trying to think that you know again, I think trying to listen to what's on the radio and trying to do that is a huge mistake, because it took a year to get that on the radio and you're already a year behind what's really happening if you're listening to what's on the radio and imitating. You know so I think that that's.
Speaker 2:That's just not a good idea either. Like, do your own thing, don't copy what's happening now, because it's already moved on right.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, yeah, good point. I think it's easy to overlook that sometimes. To overlook that sometimes. I mean one of the the things that I kind of sometimes battle with with with younger, emerging artists and this is nothing to do with the time is where it's always been a problem, but I think it is slightly more of a problem I think now are when young artists want to start going.
Speaker 1:Right, I want to send this to a record company or I want to send this to a publisher, I want to reach out to managers, but there's no music out there yet. You know there's no kind of presence, there's no web presence, there's no streams. You know that kind of all whole, you know want to run before you can walk kind of thing which the temptation to want to do that is is there, because perhaps you know you have to do a lot more than you know. Package up a demo tape and post it and spend money, and you know it's like it's one click away. You know you can find the right person. Quick dm on instagram, bang, it's there. I've noticed that's become more of an issue because of that in recent years. I guess the answer is patience.
Speaker 2:Is this something that you witness? I would say there is so much product out there, the odds are they're just not going to listen. I mean, you know they can send out whatever they want to do. Whatever they want to send. I think, as I've learned, learned, if you're doing something that's really cool, people are going to come to you. That's the way that works. I mean with previous artists, when they're doing something cool and making noise and it sounds great and it's getting attention.
Speaker 2:Uh, I was getting a lot of emails and phone calls. You know, yeah, and it's if you go with your hand out, it's just not usually going to work out because you're just not going to be interested. Yeah, I can't say, don't try, because if you're 14, maybe people be interested, you know, but for them, you know, because if you're really, really young, everyone loves a very young artist. But other than that, um, generally no absolutes here, but more often than not, if you're not getting phone calls and emails because you're making a lot of noise and people are impressed, you're probably not going to get anything or you're going to sign a really lousy deal.
Speaker 1:Well, that as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely yeah, that's well. That's that's kind of why, why I wrote the book, right, it's to help people to kind of figure out, right, what does this mean? What does that mean? Because, on the one hand, right, we have the internet. Anyone can Google something or look on chat, gpt or whatever. But sometimes the results can be a minefield to try and navigate through. So that's a battle as well. Sarah, thank you so much for your insight and your kindness and just your overall look at things. You know it's really useful for everybody. So, from the bottom of my heart, thank you for this. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much for having me. It's really fun. I've got to get your book and I can't wait to hear what this sounds like. Let me know when it comes out.
Speaker 1:Ah, the great Sarah Nagorny. Thank you, sarah. Do you know? I think one of the things that is particularly inspiring about listening to Sarah is that all of the answers that she gave in this interview were musical answers. You know she knows more than a thing or two about the music business and of course, you know strategy is important, and she more than alluded to that too. But if the music's right, other things start to work well, and that was an overriding message that came through in the essence of her thinking there. Let me just roll back and just play something that I thought was really important too.
Speaker 2:If you're doing something that's really cool, people are going to come to you.
Speaker 1:What a perfect note to finish on. Thank you, sarah. Thank you everybody for listening. I wish you well. I will see you next time. Thanks for being here, thanks for being in this community. May the force be with you.
