The Music Business Buddy
A podcast that aims to educate and inspire music creators in their quest to achieving their goals by gaining a greater understanding of the business of music. A new episode is released each Wednesday and aims to offer clarity and insight into a range of subjects across the music industry, all through the lens of a music creator for the benefit of other music creators. The series includes soundbites and interviews with guests from all over the world together with commentary and clarity on a range of topics. The podcast is hosted by award winning music industry professional Jonny Amos.
Jonny Amos is a music producer with credits on a range of major and independent labels, a songwriter with chart success in Europe and Asia, a senior lecturer in both music creation and music business at BIMM University UK, director of The SongLab Ltd and the author of The Music Business for Music Creators.
www.jonnyamos.com
The Music Business Buddy
Episode 11: From Open Mics to Media Scores: Chris Tye's Musical Journey
What if the journey from small-time gigs to the realm of documentary scores was more attainable than you ever imagined? Tune in to this captivating episode of "The Music Business Buddy" where we sit down with the versatile and talented media composer, Chris Tye. Chris takes us through his inspiring transition from playing open mics in Birmingham to becoming a critically acclaimed artist, eventually discovering a new passion for composing media scores. Along the way, he shares poignant moments that defined his artistic evolution and offers a candid look at the obstacles and successes that have shaped his career.
In our conversation, Chris opens up about the complexities of the music industry, shedding light on the intricacies of co-writing, music rights, and the process of reclaiming master rights. His experiences working on various recording projects underlines his values on open-minded collaboration and constructive feedback. Chris's journey is a testament to the power of perseverance and adaptability in a rapidly changing industry, as he delves into the business aspects that every emerging artist should be aware of.
We also explore Chris's unexpected transition into composing for documentary films, revealing the unexpected opportunities that reignited his passion for music creation. From booking studio time with Michael Clark to navigating upfront payment discussions, Chris's journey is packed with lessons on the importance of continuous creation and professional growth. Discover how focusing on a specific genre and collaborating with like-minded professionals can open doors to opportunities, and gain practical advice on simplifying royalty collection and succeeding in the competitive world of production music. This episode is a treasure trove of inspiration and actionable insights for anyone looking to make their mark in the music industry.
The Music Business Buddy. The Music Business Buddy Hello everybody, a big, warm welcome to you. You're listening to the Music Business Buddy with me, johnny Amos, podcasting out of Birmingham, england. I'm the author of the book the Music Business for Music Creators, available now in hardback, paperback, ebook format at all the major bookstores and online. I'm a music creator with credits on a variety of major and indie labels. As a writer or producer, I'm also a senior lecturer in both music creation and music business. Wherever you are, whatever you do, please consider yourself welcome to this podcast and to a part of the community around it. I am here to try and educate and inspire music creators, from wherever they are in the world, on their quest to achieving their goals by gaining a greater understanding of the business of music.
Speaker 1:Okay, so today's episode is a conversation with media composer Chris Tai. Now, chris is somebody who I've known for a few years and I really wanted to bring him onto the podcast and to talk to him, predominantly about his career as a media composer, but also kind of what led him to that you know. So just a bit of context here, right? So I'm in my mid-40s, right? Um? And I was brought up predominantly in birmingham and then I went off when I was 21, lived in london, uh, and then toured a lot, lived out of a suitcase, basically came back to birmingham when I was 30 years old, having been pretty busy for a number of years. So one of the things that I did when I came back to Birmingham 15 years ago is I kind of looked around the scene and was like you know who's been here, who's doing cool stuff musically, you know who are people talking about, and just this name kept coming up all the time Chris Tai. Oh, you want to go and check out Chris Tai. So I did and I went to go and see him perform at a venue and I was wowed. I was truly blown away. I don't think I'll ever forget it. In fact, it was wonderful. He played with a collection of musicians around him that backed him as he performed so brilliantly, with such heartfelt emotions, such a superb sense of wordplay and just amazing compositional ability.
Speaker 1:Now, as the years have gone by, I've got to know him through music and through music education. We both lecture at the same university and I wanted to talk to him about you know what happened to that artist and about you know what happened to to that artist and you know how he evolved, how he evolved into what he is now, which is a very successful media composer. He he does, you know, like many music industry professionals, he does a lot of different things, right, you know he produces for different artists and that kind of thing, but it's his media composition work where he really really, really excels, and I think a big part of what has helped him to excel is what his background is in music. So I really hope that you enjoy this conversation with him. He's a really nice guy, as you'll see, and he's very open about kind of what he's done over the years and where it's led him to. So enjoy the conversation.
Speaker 1:I will check back in with you at the end, brother ty. Hey, johnny. Uh, question one. Uh, there are numerous roles that you play in the music industry, including being a songwriter, a producer, a composer, a technologist, a lecturer and a mentor, but you're also a very critically acclaimed artist in your own right. So let's just go back a little bit to the albums that you created, such as Somewhere Down the Line, the Paper Grenade, stronger in Numbers, and just tell us a little bit about your evolution throughout that time period as an artist. How did that kind of start for you? Were you producing yourself and that kind of thing?
Speaker 2:yeah, um, oh, it's good. It feels like a long time ago actually, but, um, I was kind of I'll start right from the beginning, because it'd be yeah, please, yeah.
Speaker 2:I was always in bands at school and that sort of thing never really considered myself, uh, solo artiste and uh, I we moved over to Birmingham after after sort of college and uni and all that stuff and uh started doing open mics and then got um gigs on the circuit and then so that's like around I was about 21, so 21 to 23 gigging around there and then started working with Blue Whale I think I still go in as sort of an education set up, but he was a studio at the time Benny and Boydie, and they just sort of helped me out so much with putting on cool gigs and studio time and just giving it a bit of just felt like a sort of looking back. It was a bit like an artist development thing really. Um, and they sent out a comp. It's a really good idea actually. Look, I've not seen anybody else do it really. But they sent out everybody that came through their stable. They sent out like this cd with just like I don't even know if it's full songs, but just some snippets of stuff we'd recorded.
Speaker 2:And it got picked up by a label called head record records, which was like some people from virgin, some people from universal, and they sort of put some money in and um created this, this little indie. They were really great and they tried to um, this will sort of speak to kind of how I've changed over the years, really, I suppose. But they tried to put me with this producer I don't know if you know Fink. No, I don't think so. So he's a massive artist now, like plays all over the world, but he wasn't at the time, he was a producer. They tried to put me down in Hoxton I forget which studio. It was Hoxton Square. There's loads of studios in hoxton square, isn't it?
Speaker 2:Um with think, right, and and he and I was like no way, I'm doing it at blue whale, I'm doing it blue, well, keeping it real, keeping it real. And so he was like right, okay, so think will come up and uh, he'll produce at blue whale. So I was like okay, and then, uh, he came up and he said, um, looking back, he was, he was perfectly fair enough to say this. But he was like, yeah, nice little studio. But we sort of took it as if he was dissing the studio. So in the end I insisted that benny did it. Benny produced, uh, the first. They called it a mini album because it was like nine tracks. I've never heard that phrase before, or since. Um and uh, we just set up and played live. That was that was what we did, and it is what it is really. That I I kind of don't really stand by it. In fact, I took it down off streaming um, I noticed that you'd taken it down.
Speaker 1:Yeah, why I?
Speaker 2:feel. I just feel like it was all too soon really to to have. I think I'll remember it more fondly as the years go on. But yeah, I don't know. Anyway, that deal that I had, they paid for that album to be done and then we did then eventually go down and work with Guy Massey from Manic Street, preachers and Pretwell and all that stuff we did 10 days down in Hoxton Square, milo Studios. It was amazing and each one of these things you just learn so much like. Those recordings never came out, um, which I think it was like the tail end of the, that part of the industry where they just throw money at it and um. So we got a really great experience but those recordings didn't come out. Then Then the label folded. Then the next thing I did, I worked self-funded with Tim Bidwell down in Brighton, which was incredible Again, did an EP with him, the Matchbox Stand.
Speaker 1:Ah, okay, the EP, the Matchbox Stand. That was okay.
Speaker 2:I thought you produced that Okay okay and he was amazing as well, like an amazing person to learn from In terms of like not overcrowding things, you know, and like you've just got to be really careful if you double track this, chris, because it turns into something else. I remember a lot of stuff from those sessions about how to just like you're always sort of looking for systems when you're producing stuff. I mean, he used to do six vocal takes, like just this arbitrary number, six vocal takes, and then we comp into that and then, if we need to, we can do more. But I'd never really it got.
Speaker 2:It got this sort of framework which I really enjoyed working with him and, uh, really cool down in Brighton by the beach you know what we like about the beach, I just promise and uh, that was amazing. Um, oh, in the in the time as well, building up to that, when I did sort of the first album and the recording in hoxton, I was managed by a guy called paul dando who helped me a lot as well, and I'm still in touch with him. Um, you know, one of those management arrangements where I'm never really I can't imagine what he got from it in the end. Right, right, um, but I guess a lot of it is speculative as a manager, isn't it?
Speaker 1:well, love and legacy as well.
Speaker 2:Right, that's kind of yeah lovely guy and, um, yeah, was able to. Yeah, you're right, people, people will help, won't they?
Speaker 1:I think, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah um, that's never changed, has it like there's? You know there are still people out there. I do it a lot for people. You know where they'll just reach out and you know, literally, there are still people out there. I do it a lot for people. You know where they'll just reach out and you know, literally, just this morning, you know, just you know somebody's emailed me and you know they sent me a song. I'm like, oh wow, this is great, let me help you, because you know, I know what it's like, you know.
Speaker 2:Anyway, I digress no exactly, but that's the point I wanted, isn't it? It goes around because I, because I've um, even I was talking about some really before we started recording some really honest feedback that I'd got oh yeah, on a song. Um, I uh, I even count that as a sort of the fact that he was bothered to tell me the truth, you know, and and sort of risk upsetting me. And it wasn't because he was a horrible guy, he was trying to, like, spur me on to do better.
Speaker 1:And just for the benefit of the listeners, dude. So we were talking earlier about kind of this piece of feedback that was given to you once. That kind of really really was quite brutal, and about how it kind of shaped you and I should have been recording really. But I asked you an interesting question. I said how long did it take you to realise that he was right? And you and, uh, I should have been recording really. But I asked you an interesting question. I said how long did it take you to realize that he was right? And you said two days yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 2:I mean it was a long time ago, but I don't think it was that long. I remember I'd ridden my bike over to his house and I remember sort of riding back thinking, oh man, that's sort of all fired up. And then, um, I spoke to my wife, when I've been sure she was my wife at the time, but she had to listen to me is the, is the the upshot? So yeah, and she just helped me navigate it really.
Speaker 2:And I suppose, and then and beyond that, in the next album that came after Matchbox Stand, I basically had started, I did about half the album with him we talk about like support. He had a really nice studio set up in his house and I was a bit, a little bit, at a loss. You know, I'd done this ep, done some gigs and I'd got all these other songs that I wanted to do. Um, and he just helped me all the way through, like from selecting from all the demos and starting recording things in his house. We didn't finish the album together because I think, uh, to be honest, I was probably just taking the pill, taking up all his time.
Speaker 1:So then, so we did about half that but also, it's worth adding, you had a really, really, really supreme level buzzy name at that point, like there was a lot of people talking about you, a lot of people knew who you were, so I'm sure actually he was, you know, thinking, hey, this is a good investment of my time here, no matter how you see it.
Speaker 2:Possibly. I mean actually a couple of years before. It's really interesting actually thinking about. All this stuff links together because he runs. People are going to know who he is. I need to anonymise, don't I? It's okay.
Speaker 2:So yeah, he's a very successful media composer and was doing a lot of library work. So two years before we started working on this album, he pulled me in to basically, so they get a brief. You know, I think it was for like a links advert or something, um, so it wasn't library the first. It ended up being library basically anything that said acoustic songs, things. They'd think, oh, and I, you know I've done it since. It's like, oh, we could start with chris. You know we asked chris if he's got any. So these two writers, these two sort of heavyweight writers, pull me and chris, you got any demos you're not doing anything with. And of course, as you know, the answer to that is always yes, um, so we just I just let them rip this song apart that I wasn't using and we did taught me loads of stuff about co-writing and you know, I'm not sure I'm probably skipping ahead here, but no, no, it's good, it's good, it's good so it.
Speaker 2:So they are some key takeaways from that co-writing thing. We sort of were brutal, chopped up the demo and made it into something, and then there was a rule that was like there's no bad ideas to start off with, just to get everybody comfortable. And then we went away and wrote our own lyrics. Then we came back and cobbled together the best of all the bits of lyrics and stuff and then after that then it becomes quite. Once you've built that trust, then it is quite. Now I don't like that and this is why I don't like it, and you can be really kind of truthful with each other. But that structure I always think about with um, because I've done some co-writing where it feels like very, if you get shot down too soon, it's just, it's hard to pull it back, isn't it it? Because we're all kind of sensitive, egotistical creatives and we need to feel that we have value really.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, we do.
Speaker 1:That's very true. Well, the greatest gift anyone can ever give anyone is to listen right. You know so. Even if you don't like an idea, you've got to listen right. Certainly certainly, dude. Just before we move on to the next question, can I just ask you? So you talked earlier about um head record records. Now I I didn't know about that as being a part of your um early career. Don't worry if you don't know the answer to this, but just out, purely out of interest, just looking at the kind of the history of it and and the sort of business side of it um did. Uh, presumably there are they as a, as an independent entity of kind of you record executives from different companies. They will have funded those recordings and therefore own the masters.
Speaker 2:Interesting, interesting, interesting. Yes, I think they did, but they gave them back to me when it all folded, so they just. I can't remember exactly what the process was. So all the masters became my own at that point.
Speaker 1:Was there a liquidisation caveat in the contract, as in if this company liquidises, all rights refer back to the original rights holder? Possibly?
Speaker 2:I don't know, it was one of those like I had a music lawyer and they were sort of helping me navigate that. So in terms of, I guess there was really, but it didn't happen until a few few years later. Um, I mean, it's only really when I've started doing the sync stuff that I've really switched on to the, to the royalties and things. Um, I was kind of barely young and clueless at the time. Um, until you start self-releasing and that's kind of stuff. So with those things it was, I didn't even think about it until they went oh, of stuff.
Speaker 1:so with those things it was, I didn't even think about it until they went oh, you can have these masters now, and I was, I guess I, I think I kind of thought, well, they're mine anyway, yeah, yeah, well, that's the well, it's just. It's just an interesting one, because sometimes, you know, as we all know, when it comes to things like sample clearance, it can be a minefield. It's way more difficult than it should be, because it's like, well, who owns this? Who has the rights to this? Oh, it was this company, oh, but then they got merged with this company, but then that person left, and so who owns it?
Speaker 1:So, for example, just hypothetically speaking, if you were to kind of revisit some of those recordings from that time because I believe it was a, you know, we all have different golden eras to our career where we shine brighter than other times I asked you, I think that was a time where you shine very, very, very brightly. There are other times since, which we'll get onto in a bit, but, um, just, you know, devil's advocate in me kind of just thinks, I would love to hear some of those recordings that no one ever heard and, instead of just taking them as they were, with those takes, with those people, and just kind of go, let's just have a look at some of the acapellas from that time, because there are, you know, for example, electronic labels out there that would love to get their hands on some of those acapellas and use them. But if there's not clearance in place on the masters, if they like it, the first thing they're going to say is who owns the masters? What kind of clearance we got blah blah, blah, blah. Got blah, blah blah.
Speaker 2:You know there's a treasure chest of recordings out there somewhere, right? Yeah, I don't know. Um, I see what you're saying. I think it's kind of quite smart business what you're saying, but I don't know if I really struggle. The artist in me just wants to do new stuff all the time and like, yes, I could revisit, but I'd probably want to re-record vocals because, like I alluded to earlier, I think all those opportunities with the first album and then immediately a load of budget to go and record at a top studio in London, I wasn't ready for any of it. Like I wasn't ready. I was like I wasn't ready in my skill level. I wasn't ready in my attitude towards it. I was still very, very much of the kind of like that's it now. Got my, got my deal, I can finally like so not took my foot off the gas, but expect, had this idea of what labels do. But it's never really been like you still always have to work.
Speaker 2:Yeah, when labels were taking the weight, you know, and the more hard you let them work, the more you pay for it eventually, anyway, you know.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, and that's anyway. You know, yeah, yeah, and that's you know, but you know that's there's many, many you do, and there's many people in that situation. We've all been there, you know, and it just it feels like you know, right, you've signed this deal, right, that's the goal. You're there, you're like no, no, no, no, that's when the work starts, or that's when things get more complex, or you know, um, okay, so moving on into 2018, right, so you composed an album for the award with a motion, uh, original motion picture irene's ghost. How did that project come about? And, kind of, how did you find the process? Because you'd have been through quite a lot by that point musically, yeah, so, okay, and that's an album that you haven't ripped down from Spotify. It's still there and it's amazing. Yeah, I really love it. So how did that project kind of come about? Did you have a bunch of songs that you know that you kind of purposely wrote for, you know, to screen? Was it like kind of scoring style or was it more songs?
Speaker 2:So, I'd always really. I think like it's a dream for a lot of composers to um, to transition into that sort of world, um. So somebody approached me, um, based on the artist stuff, can we use this song? Um, which one was? It was the unassuming start off the paper grenade that they wanted to use, which they did end up using um, and then.
Speaker 2:So I met the guy and then, in a rare flurry of self-confidence, I said what are you doing for the rest of the music? And he said, oh, you know, we're gonna like look around for individual tracks. I went well, why don't you just let me? Why don't you just let me do it? I don't know what was up with me that day. I was really believing in myself and um, so he said, all right, yeah, so I didn't have my setup at home at the time. So I booked two days with michael clark. Yeah, yeah, um, it was amazing. So he did the other half of the paper grenade.
Speaker 2:You know, I was saying I'd done it with two producers. He, we sort of co-produced with that and he was amazing, like an amazing, like I learned more from him than than anyone. Really, we worked really well together, um, and so I just went in kind of wrote songs really quickly. We co-wrote one, um, so did six tracks, sent them. He liked them all, this director, and then from then on it was like right, you're doing the sound, and then you know, like so.
Speaker 2:So the thing I like about that is it was I was kind of at a bit of a stage of being a bit down on my luck with the artist thing and and then that happened, and it happened purely because of the calling card of my artist stuff that was out there. So that's like obviously teach as well. So I often say that to students you know, when you, when there is a reason to create, you know you've got to, you've got. You never know which sort of path it's going to take. And then, and then, of course, once you've done a film soundtrack, people look at you in a different way and maybe it opens other doors. Then so it's all. And plus, I just love the process of like People had said, oh, you have to make loads of music. But I was like what, like that sounds like an absolute dream and different versions of things, and so some of it was recorded with Michael, some of it was the one track that I'd got off the album and then I set up a studio at home.
Speaker 2:It was a long process. I think we were sort of working on it for about two years, which was perfect because I was able to just deliver things and then, and then it got a bit more specific can you look at some music for this scene? And then, and I didn't negotiate this is probably really bad advice, but I didn't negotiate money until quite near the end. So just when I was getting to the point where, look, you're going to have to demonstrate commitment to me here because I've done 5,000 hours, but yeah, it worked out. But I guess in the future well, in the future I have been a lot more upfront about money. Yeah, well, you know, we live and learn.
Speaker 1:I mean the future. Well, in the future, I have been a lot more upfront about money. Yeah, well, you know, we live and learn. I mean you know? I mean it's okay to make mistakes, isn't it? That's how we learn, isn't it you know?
Speaker 2:but also I was fledgling, wasn't I?
Speaker 1:So I didn't really hardball and get as much as I could, um, but you're always at the mercy of budgets anyway. In in in that world, right, you know it's like. It's like. It's like when you're talking to uh I don't know record companies, for example, it's like you know they already have a figure in mind of what they're going to pay you for the production. So it's not like, it's not like there's that like the wiggle room might be on I don't know points or something, but it might, you know. It's like. Well, this is the budget for this and and films are the same right? What's interesting to me there is that that a lot of the correct me if I'm wrong here but a lot of the creativity that went into that was whilst the film was presumably still in production.
Speaker 2:This wasn't like it's a dream. Well, it's a doc, right, so it's a documentary. So loads of it had been. They had, like they do hundreds of hours, don't they? For a documentary and, um, yeah, so it was perfect.
Speaker 2:That's not always the case, but the fact that I could get in early and work like that enabled me to really get what was what was right for the film. And the director said that I want it to sound. But so the album he really liked was, uh, somewhere down the line which is really demoing, and he said I want it to sound like it's your first album. That's like, okay, brilliant, I could be. I can, I can make this sound shit. Yeah, I feel like I. Really. It was the perfect sort of project for me to get started on that kind of stuff, um, and also meant I had loads of stuff left over and it just like I always want to be creating. But I do find it hard, the older I get, to motivate myself to do it. Just for the sake of it, yeah, even though I do feel that's really important to do that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, kind of using. That's where the technique comes in, right, doesn't it? I mean, the things that you write from your heart create the art and, uh, the rest of its technique in it. I just made that. Oh god, that was good, wasn't it?
Speaker 2:yeah, so yeah, I think, um, yeah, on that point, I think it's really important to do both, in case I forget to say this later. I think you need to have projects that you're working on and they have a. They have a destination. You know there's a home for the music you're making, but also, I think, a completely different hat. You've got to come out to your creative place and just create and just remind yourself to do that sort of creative play, because that feeds it all too.
Speaker 1:Yeah, good advice. So, following on from that kind of chronologically, you've found since a lot of success operating as a media composer and you've written and produced a wide selection of recordings for, like, warner Chappell, universal Music. Tell us a little bit about how that works for you. Are you making kind of albums and then pitching them, or are you working with other people on their projects, or vice versa? How does it work for you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I've never done a complete album. Um, I work with a few different companies and got into it through that route, um, through poseidon music. They're called, um I was gonna say, birmingham based they're not anymore, it's based in portugal, I think but um, so that got me into it. And then there was a few opportunities um that came because they were sort of quite successful, those tracks and as you know those libraries, you know they really do um kind of work for you, um the more prestigious the libraries, but they've been out there for years and they're still kind of earning money. So so, to start off, it was contributing tracks. Off the back of that I've sort of formed my own connections with those companies and and beyond and they were they kind of know what I can do.
Speaker 2:That's an interesting thing as well, because I suppose the temptation is to say you can do everything because you all work right but there's just no way that me making a trap beat makes any sense, because there's people that can just do it so well and so quickly.
Speaker 1:It confuses people, doesn't it? I mean, I know that you are a multi-genre producer and a multi-genre writer. I know that I could throw you into any room with any artist and you'd come out and you would yield the right result right, because you're brilliant at what you do. However, it's too confusing for people, isn't it? Like you know you've it's got to be. Oh, you know, that's chris ty. Like he's the, the ambient folky guy, like you know, yeah, well, that's it.
Speaker 2:It's like what, what can you really do? What can you really? What you're really interested, that's the other thing is, what do you want to spend your time doing Like? I don't? I don't necessarily want to spend my time making trap beats Not that I could anyway. You know, I've got nothing against trap.
Speaker 1:I bet you could make trap beats. But I see your point, I see your point.
Speaker 2:Well, at the minute I'm actually making a lot of trap beats because of some community work that I'm doing. Oh well, that's good, I'm loving it. But, yes, kind of like and it is a sort of ambient folk, orchestral strings and things like that that I can really do. So once you've got a team of people the music supervisors and the producers of the albums they kind of just send the briefs my way and I'll do stuff. So I think that I think I've had like five tracks on one album, so that's about half an album. So, and collaboration is just really key with that.
Speaker 2:So now I'm doing what was done to me in the first instance of like, oh, who's the acoustic guy that we can pull these demos apart. And now I'm thinking like, um, who, who does this? So I've worked, I've co-written with loads of people and and that's like when co-writing work, I know you've done loads of it, but it just feels great, doesn't it? And the opposite is true when it's not working, it's not so good, but but when you're actually feeding off each other, then it speeds the whole thing up. It makes me feel like I'm in a band again and we can have fun and you can deliver more, like you can turn out more songs, yeah, um.
Speaker 2:So I've got stuff sitting on various different albums. As you know, it's a bit of a lottery when things get synced. Then you, you look at your prs and your royalty statement and, um, it's kind of a nice surprise, but it still feels quite random all that royalty. Like you said, I think it needs to be simplified. Did you ever see that Image and Heat the music passport thing that she was doing?
Speaker 1:Oh yes, yes, I did see a little bit about that. Yeah, it kind of made a lot of sense. Yeah, there's been a lot of initiatives like that over the years and I really want to see one of them really break off and change things. And, unless I'm mistaken, there hasn't really been one yet. Max Martin started a similar one a few years ago, but that didn't really kind of break off either. Well, not in this country anyway, not unless I'm mistaken.
Speaker 2:but yeah, does it suit the powers? That be the confusion? I don't know. I think there's just, there's lots of unclaimed royalties.
Speaker 1:Well, there are. There are, you know, the black box, as it were, is a thing, the. I think the problem is part cultural and part technological. In regards to collection, from the observations that I've made, it's an inability to communicate effectively between all the central management organisations collective management, you know, collective management organisations Despite their continued commitment to want to communicate with another. There are problems in that, and so, yeah, we're always kind of, you know, but who knows? I mean, the solution to many people is oh, you know, it needs to sit on a ledger, it needs to be digital, it needs to be this and that, and there's kind of a case for that, but there's also that's fraught with difficulty. So I'm not sure what the answer is. Maybe, if I figure it out, I'll put it in the next edition of my book.
Speaker 2:You'll figure it out. Um so, um, uh, so you one more thing, sorry about the library stuff.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, uh, what was it? Was it library and like media composer stuff? Yes, so so this was the start of me working really closely to briefs um, library producers and music supervisors, which, in my experience, tend to be musicians and are really, really helpful for guys. I just, I just love. I haven't had a bad experience working with one of these, uh, library producers. They seem to really understand what they want and I always get loads of great feedback and they never seem to get because I they want and I always get loads of great feedback and they never seem to get. Because I really love feedback, I'll say I need to work with producers and music supervisors that I trust and I can send something really sketchy and then they can kind of sort of help me get it over the line. I need to feel like I'm on the right track. I was like I kind of get a bit lost that's nice.
Speaker 1:Okay, so if you so, I figured out a few years ago, I'm sure you know it sounds like you've done the same thing here where, where you start working with, you know, with sync agents and with supervisors and all these kind of people in that world, and you go oh, they're all music creators they've all got their own stuff.
Speaker 2:No wonder've all got their own artist stuff and all that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, of course. And now of course that's brilliant for a hundred reasons. Many of you know a couple of the reasons you've said there about kind of that sympathy and understanding between you know, kind of one creator to another and that kind of thing. But I think sometimes it can feel like, you know, if we cast ourselves back to our younger years, it can feel like the smoke and mirrors of the industry. How do we smash through that glass ceiling? How do we make connections? And actually the idea of it is very different from the process, isn't it? Because the idea can be oh, how do I get to those people in suits who make those decisions and you go? Actually, no, those people are just me in 20 years.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, Isn't it funny. Yeah, yeah, I think you want to believe that there's a kind of maybe we want to believe that it's harder than it is. And you've got to appeal to all these people that are way out of touch with the music. Yeah, yeah, In terms of sync work, it feels really nice and supportive and they want a great album and they'll soon know if you're not right for it, and you know, and I guess that happens as well. But, yeah, finding the right music and then you're in touch, like direct, and you can talk about things and when you've got a bit of downtime you can say have you got anything that's suitable? And they know what's. It's just kind of a really nice way to work. I really like it and good for you.
Speaker 1:Well, you're obviously very good at it, dude. Um, speaking of which adverts, right? So, um, I know you mentioned earlier about an advert, but I know from conversations that you and I have had in the past about kind of creating music for adverts. Can you tell us a little bit about that side of your work and how it kind of differs from other compositional work, if, if at all?
Speaker 2:yeah, so there's that. I was kind of thinking about this. There's a lot of um, there's a lot of similarity, obviously working to the brief, but the turnaround generally is a lot quicker. So you'll be. You know, the adverts tend to be where it's like we, um, we've got, we need this by tomorrow, you need to do a pitch tomorrow and you have to kind of do your all-nighters. Like it's way more work-life balance friendly to do the sync stuff, where you know you've got maybe a month to deliver some stuff and I think in terms of, like the compositional output, you've got to make it hit a lot quicker. You know, for, like, say, a 30 second advert, it's really got to cover some ground quickly. You got hit points. I guess it's more like somewhere between the sync stuff and the film stuff, interesting, like, I think, like a movie trailer, where you've got to hit certain things. The tone of it has got to be absolutely right.
Speaker 1:When you say the tone of it got to be absolutely right. Um, you work when you say that. When you say the tone of it you mean the mood or the sonics, or both, or something else both, really.
Speaker 2:I mean the tone as in like, it's just got to be right for the, for the, for the thing, whereas if you're making library music, there's so many different homes for that music, but this is very specific um. So I guess more stress. You're working with ad agencies, so more cooks, which can be frustrating, but in my experience has generally been really good. Um, because you'll get like, as well as, in contradiction to what we were just saying about how great music supervisors are with all their like, support and love, um, sometimes you need a cold opinion. That's not like that doesn't care what sample you used on the kick drum, or you know. I mean just like. That doesn't feel right. That's not right. That's really valuable as well, because that to you and I is gone, hasn't it? Because we're so embedded in the, in, in the minutiae of the, the creation at that time. Um, but also bigger budgets for all that. For all that, there's bigger budgets with adverts.
Speaker 1:So finally, um, what, what advice do you have for emerging music creators of today? And I'll frame it that way you work with a lot of you produce a lot of artists, right. You work with a lot of young artists. We teach in the same university, right? We know a lot of what Gen Z are up to right now. So this advice is not necessarily what you would give your former self, because the industry we signed up to ended a long time ago. Right, it's a totally new music industry now and it's it's really exciting, it's fantastic. But what? What advice would you give to people now looking to break through with their music into their world?
Speaker 2:I like that question, Johnny.
Speaker 1:It's a tough one, but there's a lot to it, yeah.
Speaker 2:So I think the first bit would be it hasn't changed, you've just got to get creating. So this is the same thing as me with my four track in my bedroom doing it every day. I'm not saying that was good, but is sharpening tools, isn't it for for later on? Um, so, like the, the modules I tend to teach at the uni are like media composition things. So the question I get asked a lot is how do you get into composing for media, which you've just got to start doing it? And then I go all right, how well, there's two ways you could. There's a thousand websites where you could go and download a clip and start composing to it and that's, that's great. But you need a little bit of jeopardy.
Speaker 2:So I think, like, approach student film students get, because there'll be no budget, but you've still got to make something great for the end product, and they could still tell you it was crap, and they could still, you know, and it was still open door. So you've got to like forge those, um, those connections and start doing it. You've got to start doing it in the same way that we. We started doing it, didn't we, before there was anybody, you know asking us to do it. Somehow you've got to do that, because here's the evidence in my case, look at the route that led me into media composition. It was. It was purely through a track that was sitting on an album that I thought nobody was listening to and I was getting all upset about it. So, do these things, do your best work. That's the other. Yeah, you've got to do your best work. How are you going to stand out? How are you going to stand out? How this calling card? When somebody finds it, how is it going to like, blow their head off?
Speaker 2:um, not, everybody has to like it um get the showreel together. So, specifically talking about um, you know, whatever that looks like, my showreel tries to bring in everything. I don't possibly it's a bit confusing, but there's sync stuff on there, there's um advert stuff, there's the film stuff. Um, make it make it short, make it snappy nobody's got any time make it so that they watch this minute, like I would say, maximum of a minute showreel, and they're like, yeah, and if it's not, yeah, let's work with this person. Then don't put it out, don't send it anywhere, wait.
Speaker 1:Good, so an edit of your edits.
Speaker 2:Just keep chipping away, just keep chipping away until you play it to somebody and they're like whoa, you know. And then you can like I know you could in theory, wait forever, but if you don't have the work on your showreel, go and make it. You know, like we you could do. You could make like a cool little video on your iphone and and everybody knows somebody who makes films and there's film school there's definitely ways to do it. I am by far not the world's best networker, but I've managed to do it just because I like being around creative people and it feels I know. That's my home, you know, that's how I can talk to people and that's how I can communicate effectively. And also, like, if you run into somebody, what music, what you work on at the moment, johnny, as a sort of an acid test just have something to say, just make sure you've got something to say, genuine. So, in other words, that little bit of pressure to make sure you're working on something. Yeah, so you're active. Also, I would say collaborate. What are you doing, johnny? Can I come and just, like you know, watch what you're doing? Yeah, yeah. And the other thing that I see a lot from the university is gigging. Don't burn out on the same circuit, because I definitely did it. So, once you've played all the venues, it's amazing how quickly people just kind of stop showing up, because I saw you last week. You've got to gig so you can get out of town, but you can also how can you be creative with it? You can put on your own shows and, like go in unexpected plate. There's loads of cool opportunities to do things differently and collaborate within all that. So, um, get active. I know that sounds really overly simplified, but what can you do? Yeah, today, who could you call to like, put on a gig? Putting on a gig is a great thing, isn't it? Because we were talking about this before?
Speaker 2:Once that date's in the diary, there's a whole load of things that need to happen to make it a success. So you've got to start rehearsing the band. You've got to make some flyers, zhuzh up your website, get your social media sorted. How are you going to get people there? How are you going to make it different? Who's going to support? It just triggers this sort of quite stressful chain of events that you have to do once you've got that gig in the diary. So make yourself accountable. One more thing. I know I'm rambling, no it's good, ramble away.
Speaker 2:Tell people what your plans are so that they ask you about them. How's that album coming on, chris? Oh God, you know, because that's really powerful in my, because I don't want to be, I don't want to come across flaky with people, so you end up doing it just to not be that, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's so interesting.
Speaker 1:It's always a piece of advice that I give people. You know, I get a lot of people saying to me oh johnny, how should, how should I write my uh spotify bio and I'll go. Well, they just four things, right who are you, where are you from, what you, what you, what you've been doing and what and where, what you're planning to do next. It's all it needs to be right, and that last one's really important. I totally agree. I find myself nodding along to everything you're saying, quite honestly, dude.
Speaker 1:But, um, you know, when you said that, I was like, oh yeah, you're gonna say not enough not enough never, never, um, okay, well, let's wrap it up there for the time being. Um, dude, thank you so much for being here, uh, a part of the community, helping people, uh, and opening your heart to people, um, it really makes a big difference. You know there's people all over the world tuning in and wanting to hear the perspectives of people just like you. So, thank you from the bottom of my heart.
Speaker 1:Thanks, johnny, and thanks for what you're doing and thanks for being wonderful yourself, right we'll stop there, then I should have cut my laugh out at the end there, shouldn't I really? But anyway, do I really laugh like that, Gosh? Anyway, I guess I must do. Anyway, I hope you enjoyed that conversation.
Speaker 1:I think one of the many things to take out of the conversation there with Chris is you know his evolution. You know not just his ability to evolve, but how naturally it was you know that young, buzzy, hyped-up singer-songwriter and he was, believe me, there was a lot of buzz around him For him to go from that into a media composer. You know, it's still him. You know Something that I asked him off-air, if you like, beforehand. I said do you still consider yourself a recording artist? And he said well, yeah, not well, yeah, not really, but you know, in some ways, yes. And I said well, you know, I think you are a recording artist, you just don't perform. You're still a recording artist. You just don't perform what you are doing live.
Speaker 1:You know, um, you know dreams. They evolve, don't they? You know they go from somewhere into somewhere else and it's beautiful when that happens. None of us stand still, do we? You know, in this trade, or in any other trade for that matter? And if we do, we struggle, you know. So evolution is a big part of our practice, you know, no matter what level we are at. Anyway, I hope you've enjoyed that conversation. Thank you for being here and until next time may the force be with you.
