The Music Business Buddy
A podcast that aims to educate and inspire music creators in their quest to achieving their goals by gaining a greater understanding of the business of music. A new episode is released each Wednesday and aims to offer clarity and insight into a range of subjects across the music industry, all through the lens of a music creator for the benefit of other music creators. The series includes soundbites and interviews with guests from all over the world together with commentary and clarity on a range of topics. The podcast is hosted by award winning music industry professional Jonny Amos.
Jonny Amos is a music producer with credits on a range of major and independent labels, a songwriter with chart success in Europe and Asia, a senior lecturer in both music creation and music business at BIMM University UK, director of The SongLab Ltd and the author of The Music Business for Music Creators.
www.jonnyamos.com
The Music Business Buddy
Episode 17: Hustle and Serendipity in the Music Industry - The Jamie Sellers Story
Ever wondered how a chance encounter in a guitar shop can change your entire career? In this episode of The Music Business Buddy, I sit down with Jamie Sellers, a multifaceted music professional who transitioned from aspiring pop star to a full-time producer. Jamie shares his unique journey, from his early days playing bass guitar and singing in bands, to his serendipitous break into music production. His story is a captivating blend of hustle, serendipity, and seizing unexpected opportunities, all of which paved the way for his successful career.
Discover how Jamie went from working at a guitar shop to producing a charity single with no prior experience, all thanks to a lucky break and strategic networking. We explore the importance of building relationships and staying proactive, as Jamie recounts his transition from hosting karaoke nights to landing a full-time studio position. His narrative underscores the value of persistence and creating your own luck through continuous effort and dedication.
Jamie also provides invaluable insights into navigating the complexities of the music industry, from setting up his own production company, Run Wild Productions, to balancing musical creativity with content creation. Reflecting on his journey, Jamie emphasizes the significance of authenticity, effective project management, and handling songwriting splits in collaborative settings. Whether you're an aspiring artist or a seasoned professional, Jamie's experiences and advice offer a wealth of knowledge and inspiration. Tune in to hear his compelling story and learn how focusing on the love for music can lead to unexpected success.
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The Music Business Buddy. The Music Business Buddy.
Speaker 2:Hello everybody, welcome to you. You're listening to the Music Business Buddy with me, johnny Amos, podcasting out of Birmingham in England. I'm the author of the book the Music Business for Music Creators. I'm also a songwriter and a producer with a variety of different credits. I'm also a senior lecturer in music business and music creation. Wherever you are, whatever you do, consider yourself welcome to this podcast and to a part of this community.
Speaker 2:I'm here to try and educate and inspire music creators from all over the world in their quest to achieving their goals by gaining a greater understanding of the business of music. 40 singles in the UK, two UK top 40 albums, two platinum selling number one albums in Japan, top five selling album in Spain, top 10 singles in Belgium, sweden, france and also a top 20 Billboard US hit in the dance chart, and his accolades are growing and growing. On top of that, he is a diamond bloke, so it is brilliant to have him on the show. Just before we get into the interview, I'm just going to roll back to a little clip of lauren bow when she talks in episode eight on this podcast about people that have helped her in the music industry.
Speaker 3:this is what she said, and then I also met someone I don't know if you know him actually Jamie Sellers.
Speaker 2:I know Jamie very well. I love Jamie.
Speaker 3:So Jamie really helped me out. I don't even know if he knows he helped me out this much, but he sort of, I guess, started, kick-started my dance off really.
Speaker 2:Jamie's a top guy. I'm going to try and get Jamie on the podcast actually, hey, listen, I'm a man of my word, right? So here we are, the interview with Jamie. Here we go, the great Jamie Sellers. Welcome to the music business, buddy. It is great to have you here, mate.
Speaker 1:It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you for asking me, Johnny. It's great to see you again.
Speaker 2:Good to see you again, buddy, and it's good to see you again. Good to see you again, buddy, and it's good to see you doing so. So, so well. I was just talking to you a moment ago about episode eight with Lauren and about how she name checked you, so it's brilliant to be able to then follow that up and have you here with us, talking to us. It's great, mate. I know how busy you are and I really appreciate you being here and talking. It's an absolute pleasure. Pleasure, oh, you're a good man. Okay, question one, jamie. Um, so you, you play, you sing, you top line, you produce uh, you probably dance, I don't know. There's not a whole lot you can't do. Uh, okay, you, you mix, you arrange. You are what many music publishers refer to as a kind of all rounder. Did you ever, or do you ever, consider yourself to actually be an artist in your own right, or is the goal always been to steer your creativity into creating for and with others?
Speaker 1:So no, that wasn't the goal from the outset. I very much wanted to be a pop star. So no, that wasn't the goal from the outset. I very much wanted to be a pop star. You know, that was where I started out as a singer-songwriter, when I was at school. I was in bands, I suppose relatively late Bloomer. I mean I didn't start playing.
Speaker 1:I got my first bass guitar, which was kind of what I started on at 15. So that was the first time I ever toyed with any type of well, I had played like the trumpet in school orchestra in primary school and I'd been in sort of choirs and musical theatre bits, but I never that. That was just like something to do. It never was ever anything particularly serious. But at 15 my friends got guitars for their Christmas and I remember it's so funny, I remember them coming back to school and I was like, oh, you know, what'd you get? What did you get for Christmas, kind of thing. And they were like, oh, we got guitars. And I was like, guitars, since when do we all play the guitar? What? When's this been a thing? And they were like, oh yeah, no, we're really into it. Like you should get a bass and we can start a band, and it never occurred to me at all, that had never been anything that I was particularly interested, but I had a birthday coming up so I thought, hey, let's give it a go. And as soon as I got that first bass guitar, I just fell in love immediately, you know, and and playing music with my friends very quickly then started playing you know, six string guitar because I wanted to have a go at writing songs. And as soon as as I had a go at that I was like, oh, just, this is it for me, this is just amazing. And that was it. But, like I say, very much wanted to be an artist, played in bands, then started doing my own kind of solo stuff towards the end of school and then throughout I studied music at university, but as a singer, not as a as a producer at all, and I was a singer by trade, you know. So I studied as a singer.
Speaker 1:I suppose I was kind of introduced to production at uni because we did, you know you would do a couple of modules that were sort of you'd have to do a couple of bits on logic or whatever, um, so I was introduced to it there but was not remotely interested in it. Really I was like this is all too complicated, it's all a bit techy, it's all a bit nerdy. You know compressors and EQ and I was like someone else can deal with all that. I'll just, I'll be the rock star. You know playing and singing, but when I'm and I'm going to sort of show my age a little bit here.
Speaker 1:But when I started, when I was at university, it was kind of just just as the kind of type of production that we all now know and totally take for granted, you know, kind of laptop based DAW production, was really just starting to become widely adopted. You know, I think Logic was about two years old. It was kind of you know stuff like that. So when I sort of got introduced to that I was like, okay, I reckon I can maybe get my head around around this. You know, it seems a bit more straightforward than a big mixing console with patch bays and all this sort of stuff, which was just too much for me. So I sort of thought, well, if I can teach myself how to plug this microphone into this laptop, and because I could play and I could sing and I could write, I thought, well, if I could record my own demos. That'd be pretty cool. You know, just just basic stuff and that was it.
Speaker 1:And and then I moved to London after uni um, still very much with a view to I'm going to be a pop star, I'm going to move to London, I'm going to get a record deal and I'm going to probably play in Wembley next week. Um, and did that for a couple of years Again, still writing for other people and being a producer was absolutely not anywhere near my radar at all, didn't even really consider it to be a thing I could do. And a couple of years in, you know, I got a job in a guitar shop in Denmark Street in London, was kind of playing little gigs and open mic nights and just, I didn't have a clue as an artist. Johnny, now that I work with artists and I see artists that have that thing, I'm like I never had that, whatever that is. I never had that. I could write. I think I could write good songs. I was a good musician, but I never had the whatever that other thing is. I never, never had that.
Speaker 1:And then I had a couple of sort of lucky little opportunities come my way that involved, you know, producing and writing something for someone else Again had massive imposter syndrome, because at this point I wasn't really a producer I could. I got into a stage now where I could produce a decent little demo. You know, I could. I sort of knew how to throw a decent little track together. Um, I did that and was like, okay, I reckon maybe I could turn this into something. Um, so I had a lucky little break whereby I I got asked by. I don't know if you remember Heat Magazine, do you remember?
Speaker 1:yeah the big celebrity magazine. You know, I don't even know if it's still a thing anymore, but at the time it was, it was the big thing, you know, because we're talking pre-Instagram, pre-proper social media like we know it now, and their offices were just around the corner from the shop that I worked in, and so they, at this time time, heat magazine was basically where all the sort of new zed list celebrities would go when, just when, they'd got a bit of notoriety, and heat magazine would kind of scoop them up, make a bit of cash out of them and then move on, I remember yeah, you remember, like big brother contestants and whoever else.
Speaker 1:So anyway, I was working in the shop one day and I saw this young lad being followed by two guys with little camcorders coming into the shop.
Speaker 1:I sort of recognised him as someone who'd been on Big Brother. Now, I hadn't actually watched it, but I'd sort of maybe seen some clips of it and I was like I'm sure that's that guy from Big Brother. Anyway, in, they come to the shop and I'm just sat noodling away because the shop's dead and I'm just noodling away on a guitar and they go oh mate, is there any chance you could play something? And and we'll get him to do like a funny rap or a funny song over it, like we're filming him for our website. So I'm kind of like, right, okay, yeah, so so I play this like just some random chords and this. This kid couldn't rap or sing. He was just this fairly annoying young guy who'd been on Big Brother and he hadn't won it or anything. I think he'd maybe come third or something like that. But he built up a bit of a following on Twitter because Twitter was the big social media at the time and so they were sort of trying to help him kind of get some some, you know, some, whatever, some more uh, publicity. Anyway, I played this, this random little chord sequence. He did this rapid talking nonsense and it's still actually available on on uh, if you search for it. I searched for it the other week because I was telling someone else's story. It's pretty embarrassing anyway, did that they? They filmed it and then you know, at the end they're like oh, thanks very much, mate. You know, we'll let you know when it, when it comes out. And I had the guy maybe had to sign like a kind of release form, whatever off they went and that was it and I kind of erased out of my brain and got on with my life again, still thought I'm, I'm an artist, I'm trying to be a pop star.
Speaker 1:A few weeks later a friend gets in touch and goes I've just seen you on heatworldcom. And I was like what I said, oh my god, that must be that thing with that guy. Oh gosh, right, okay. So I logged on there. Sure enough, there I was, um, and I just in the moment moment I thought, do you know what? Maybe I can get a bit of a bit of something out of this. So I managed to track down the guy I remembered his name, the guy from Heat Magazine. One of the guys from Heat Magazine managed to track him down on Twitter and sent him a message and said hey, there, it's Jamie Sellers here, the guy from the guitar shop. You know the video thing that we did. Anyway, listen, I'm actually an artist, I'm actually a singer-songwriter, you know, I wonder if there's any chance that you could, you know, tweet my MySpace from the Heat Twitter account. You know, I just thought it's worth a pun.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, of course, yeah, yeah, good hustle.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So I sort of thought send him a message. I never expected to get any response. I just thought, why not? But you know, take 10 minutes anyway. Sure enough, half an hour later he comes back and he goes. Yeah, no worries, mate, good to hear from you. Yep, I've just done that for you. You know. Good, good stuff. Um, thanks very much for your time. Um, all the best. So I thought that's a result, nice one. And then I so I just sent him a set a follow-up, just to say thank you. So I'd sent him a message. Oh, that's really kind of you, man. You know, I really appreciate that. Thanks very much.
Speaker 1:And as a jokey aside, at the end of this DM I said oh, you never know, maybe we'll turn that into a charity single one day. Ha ha ha, you know a genuine jokey aside, and that was it. And aha, you know a genuine jokey aside, and that was it. And I thought that's a little result for the day, got myself a few followers on MySpace, and you know great. Anyway, the next day my phone rings and it's this guy from Heat and he goes. Hey, there, it's Adam here from Heat Magazine. Yeah, we've just had a meeting about this single that you've proposed and the top brass at Heat are all really keen on it. And we've spoken to sam's management. Sam was the young lad from sam's management are all really up for it. So he was I don't know how you work if you go and produce a track or if you want to like write something, and we'll get together, we'll. We've sort of got a little label here at heat, so we'll, we'll sort of fund it and put it out and yeah, it'd be good fun.
Speaker 1:Now, bear in mind, at this time I had never produced anything for anybody other than myself. I had. Literally, at the time I was in a little house share. I had my laptop on a little bedside table in the corner of my room and that was my studio. I was using an iPod dock as my monitors. But obviously I thought, well, I'm going to just see what happens here, like. So I'm sort of like, well, yeah, sure thing I can. Yeah, I'll produce up a beat and we'll. You know, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 2:Thinking do you think?
Speaker 1:I'm like a producer. I'm just some Muppet who works at a guitar shop.
Speaker 2:Anyway, dashed home that sorry, this is a really long-winded answer to your question no, I love it.
Speaker 1:I love it. So I dashed home that night, stayed up till sort of two in the morning producing up this cheesy little pop track based on the thing that I'd played in the video. Anyway, I'll cut the long story short. Bear in mind, I never really thought this would happen. I thought, bear in mind, I, I never really thought this would happen. I thought you know this, I'll get a call and they'll be like oh yeah, sorry, mate, we're not got any time for that anymore. Cheers anyway. But sure enough, I wrote this thing.
Speaker 1:We got together at the guys, like one of the guys from he he. He seemed to have a bit of a studio set up in his house. I think he was just a sort of hobbyist, sort of producer musician. We got together at his flat one afternoon, had a few beers, wrote this thing and, bear in mind, this guy couldn't rap or sing. So we basically just got him to say a load of funny stuff on the track and then I sang a sort of hook to make it sound like a record, you know, and sang a load of BVs and stuff to make it feel like an actual pop record.
Speaker 1:Anyway, one thing led to another they put it out, and this was in the days pre-streaming. So this was kind of, if you had a, if you could shift, kind of I don't know 10,000 downloads in a week, you could get into the charts like fairly easily. You know. So, and because this young lad had a bit of bit of fame at the time and he'd done, he'd had a few followers on I think he had 150,000 followers on Twitter or whatever it was you know he could actually show so we put this single out, we did a daft little music video for it. Anyway, it came out and it went straight in at number like 22 in the in the top 40. Oh my god. So that was like literally the first ever thing I ever did for anybody other than myself. So obviously that's an extremely fortunate and very lucky thing to happen.
Speaker 1:But what then kind of happened was now, before that I would constantly be as I'm sure you'll be familiar with this emailing publishers or managers or record labels or anyone that I could get an email address for, trying to get anybody to listen to my music or give me an opportunity, and I mean very rarely getting any response at all and occasionally getting a. You know, no thanks, you're all right. You know, um, and that was what I spent my time doing. Any day off I had, that was what I was doing. I was either writing or I was trying to find emailing my stuff, or trying to get anywhere never getting anywhere. Now, well, now all of a sudden I had this little bit of currency, I had this little credit to my name. It wasn't the coolest like thing in the world, but it was a, an actual UK top 40 single, so I could then add that into my emails that I was then sending going. I just recently had a UK top you know, don't look at it or anything but I just recently had a uk top 40 with heat magazine and all of a sudden I noticed I started to get a lot more responses than I used to and even had some like you know, small time labels and managers sort of reaching out to me.
Speaker 1:But what I noticed was people thought I was like a writer producer, which was absolutely not how I considered myself. So I'd started getting approached by you know small time kind of managers and stuff saying, oh, we manage this little boy band. Would you be up for writing something for them or doing something? So I sort of thought I think there could be something in this. And I was already getting a little bit disillusioned as an artist. I was already getting a bit fed up and and blah, blah, blah. And then add into the mix my girlfriend at the time now wife and I had just found out that we were having a baby. So I was like panicking, going oh my god, I work in a guitar shop. I barely make enough to survive. I think I'm trying. I'm trying to be this pop star. I need to sort my life out, like I've got this baby on the way. So I thought, right, do you know what? I'm going to park the artist thing that's going on the shelf and I'm going to. I am now a writer, producer and I'm just gonna see what I can do with this and see if I can. I've got nine months before this baby arrives. I'm gonna see if I can turn this into, at least at the beginnings of something that I could feasibly make, you know, a career. So I started.
Speaker 1:Then I sort of shifted my focus a little bit. Like I said, I was starting to get some opportunities to write for I mean, we're talking very, very much grassroots, you know, small time management companies and blah, blah blah. And then I sort of started reaching out to sort of more like studios and stuff and and I reached out to one, I saw an advert online for, you know, writer producers wanted I can't remember now what site, it was like UK music jobs or it was one of those ones, you know, and it was like music producers wanted 10 pounds per hour. You know, must play guitar, piano, singing would be a bonus, must be good with logic. And I remember reading this thing, this job advert, and I was like that's exactly what I do in my bedroom for fun, you know. I was like I have to get this job, that is exactly what I do.
Speaker 1:So I sent off an application or sent a whatever a CV with a few tracks and I and I just I remember thinking nobody else is getting this job, I am getting this because I just it just just was like that's absolutely what I do. I I'm, you know. So I sent off an application. I maybe waited 48 hours and I thought, right, that's it, I'm calling them. So I phoned them up and I said, oh, it's jbc. I set an application. Is anyone? Oh, no, we're. You know, we're going through the applications over the next week or so we'll let you know. It's like no chance next day. Have you looked at my application yet? Have you looked at my tracks yet?
Speaker 1:no, uh, yeah, the managers, the. You know the manager. Still, you know that every day for a week I phoned them. I was like you're not giving this to anybody else anyway. Sure enough, I managed to get on the phone with the, the, the owner, who is our mutual friend Lawrence Hobbs.
Speaker 2:Ah, right, okay, Okay.
Speaker 1:So I hassled Lawrence for a week, eventually said, yeah, listen to your tracks, mate, sounds all right. You know, why don't you come in for a meeting? Had a meeting, hit it off with Laws and then, sure enough, he gave me a couple of sessions in his artist development company. So it was kind of writing and producing for young up-and-coming, you know, artists and anyone really. Um, and that was it.
Speaker 1:And then when I got my foot in the door there and then I gradually that went from you know, maybe he would give me a few sessions a month to start with, so I'm still working in the shop then that it started going well.
Speaker 1:It gradually crept up and up and up, and gradually I dropped my days at the shop and then eventually went full-time at the studio, and that was really that was the kind of moment, and and so by the time my son was born I was working full-time in the studio and I'd gone from just working in a guitar shop not knowing what the hell I was doing hosting karaoke as well to keep myself afloat to then being full-time in a studio actually doing it for a living by the time my son was born. So, and that was really where I then started to actually consider myself a producer and a writer. And that's where I started to learn more about publishing, because, you know, lawrence had been around a bit longer than I had. He'd sort of been, had publishing deals and he taught me about that side of the industry and pitching songs, and and that was really where I cut my teeth. And then you know, the rest is history, wow.
Speaker 2:I love that, I know. Do you know it's so it's. Thank you so much for sharing that insight, because so I know it was a very long answer no, oh no, mate, it was brilliant because I think there's so many people that are like, how does somebody become like a producer, like jamie sellers, like, how does that happen?
Speaker 2:is that like, is that a job you apply for? Is that something that you do, quite, and actually, what you show there is the perfect example of like graft and hustle, and I mean you referred to earlier as, like you know, like that UK top 40 hit that first one that you had as being like a kind of a bit lucky or whatever. But actually, if you think about it, jamie, right, you had to, like you know, move to London, get a job in Denmark Street. For those that don't know, denmark Street, by the way, so that's like a really, really cool little street. It has a lot of history to it, full of like guitar shops and stuff. You were one of the guys working in there, uh, doing your thing, being in the right place at the right time, making things happen, following it up, making a sly joke about could this be a single? You know, if you remove all of those seeds, none of that would have happened. So that was you, mate.
Speaker 1:You did that I mean, I, I do find myself telling that story quite a lot. Um, you know, when I'm talking to students or other artists who ask me similar questions, and the thing is it's like the answer to the question how do you get into writing? And it's like, well, you ask 10 different people you're going to get 10 different, probably similarly long-winded answers like mine, and I tell the story. Not, you know, really, to illustrate that, to illustrate that it's. It's not like a, a direct path, it's like it's just and and I think you hit the nail on the head it's it's right place, right time, but it's, it's got to be, that's got to be something you actively do.
Speaker 1:You seek out the right place at the right time and for me that began with moving to London. You know, and I can trace back my entire career to arriving in London on that first day. You know I can trace it all back. It's like, well, if I hadn't come to London, then I wouldn't have gone to the try to get a job in kind of music related things, and then I wouldn't have got a job in Denmark Street, and then I wouldn't have met them from Heat Magazine, and then I wouldn't have done that I wouldn't have suggested that thing in Denmark street, and then I wouldn't have met them from heat magazine, and then I wouldn't have done that, I wouldn't have suggested that thing, and then that would not, and then blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 2:And before you know, it's just this web of opportunities and just trying things out, and and you know, I love that company that you were referring to there and I'd go in and I'd work with Lawrence and would always hear you in another room. I'd be like every time I walk past that room, lawrence, it sounds brilliant what's going on in that room over there. And it was you. It was me.
Speaker 1:Yeah, in the cupboard in the back, yeah.
Speaker 2:It was a really small studio that just you did so many magic things in there. And then every time I'd kind of walk past and like you'd come out, you'd smile and there'd be like a really happy, like glowing, empowered artist that has like this amazing sounding song that you had seemingly done in like a very, very short space of time, and then Lawrence would say, oh yeah, that's Jamie. He's amazing, I go, I know I can hear it.
Speaker 1:He'd go.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he's really on his way up He'll hate you for saying that. He said something nice about me. Well, I'll remind him. I'll remind him. Do, please do so, jamie. You mentioned this, alluded to this a little bit earlier, but you know emerging producers often struggle to know how or where to kind of get started. You mentioned there about kind of there being multiple answers from different people, but you know you made the choice to work across. You know different studios in and around London work with a variety of projects before setting up Run Wild Productions. What did you learn about yourself and the business before setting up Run Wild?
Speaker 1:Oh a lot. I mean mean I had to do a lot. I mean I had to have a real crash course because, like I say, when I kind of entered the industry in a sort of any sort of serious way, I had no idea. I had no, I knew nothing about anything. You know, when I moved to london, I I just I didn't know anything.
Speaker 1:I'd got, I'd finished my degree, but I said that was as a singer in a university in Glasgow, like I hadn't really learned anything about the, the writing industry, or publishing, you know anything. Really, I had no contacts, nothing. So I very much had to kind of learn on the job, which I now, in hindsight, I'm very grateful for. I think I had just about the best education, um, on the job, as as one could could hope for, um, so, yeah, I mean it was a good. You know, when did I set up? I set up Run Wild Music in like 2017, I started, so by that point, yeah, I'd been doing this for a good sort of six years maybe by that point is it seven years already since you set up rum wild?
Speaker 2:wow, yeah, yeah, that's crazy. Yeah, where's that gone?
Speaker 1:wow, okay, I know mad, mad um, but yeah, so I I had to. Um, yeah, I really had to. Yeah, I really had to learn and kind of figure out. You know who I was. You know, like I say, when I started I was still learning really, and then once I got to the point where I felt confident enough to try setting up my own thing, you know it had been a good. You know the best part of 10 years really. Um, you know it it'd been a you know a good. You know the best part of 10 years really, um, learning and and grafting and and and getting better and improving and improving and and figuring out kind of what I was, what I was, where my strengths lay, and and stuff like that. Um, so, yeah, I had a lot I had to learn.
Speaker 2:You know a lot of learning to do and a lot of of kind of preparing to to give that a goal really yeah, wow, it's so interesting to hear from like that point where you know you were in denmark street, transitioning from this kind of guitar shop job into where you, you know, and then, like baby on the way, he's now a teenager almost. Right, mate, that's mental. Um, so let's talk about artists, right, you know? Because, jamie, the truth is, you and I have had very similar paths, right, and when you were talking earlier, I was like kind of smiling and nodding along, not only because I was enjoying listening to your fantastic story, but also just thinking, god, this is so similar to, like you know, move to London, all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2:Um, now, I also had a similar moment where I was like, when you start seeing fantastic artists, you go, oh right, okay, I never had that, that thing that we can't quite explain, right, but you have a lot of artists from all sorts of levels working with you, coming into your you trying to bring out the best of them and that kind of thing. But many artists really struggle to know how to find their niche and build their sort of audience. Are there any tips that you can give to kind of up-and-coming artists that wish to develop their music and develop their art and build their career. I know that's a big subject, but is there anything that instinctively comes to mind?
Speaker 1:I think authenticity, I think now more than ever, I mean, it's always been important, but I think, certainly with the way that the landscape of particularly of pop music, but I think it goes across the board really, and you know, I think people want authenticity and you see it in not only in music, but you see it in in content online. You see, you know the people that are. You know, if we take tiktok, for example, obviously a big, a big subject, um, in everything you know. But, but music as well, it isn't the ultra high, polished, super, you know, production value stuff that resonates with people. More often than not it's the thing that's filmed on an iPhone 12, you know, in a, in a, whatever.
Speaker 1:People crave that authenticity and I think it goes.
Speaker 1:It goes for artists as well, for that they want authenticity from their, from their artists.
Speaker 1:Um, and I, that's what I always recommend to artists that they they really try to follow, um, you know, rather than trying to, you know, maybe shift, shift what they do to suit whatever they think is the hot trend or hot sound of the time. You know, do play to your strengths and be authentic, because people will resonate with that and that's, I think that's something that artists are often scared to do. I think it's easier said than done and I always say to artists listen, it's easy for me to sit here. I'm not the one that has to go out there and and do this stuff. I'm just telling you what, what I'm seeing, um, but I think being authentic to, to whatever it is that they do, being able to be self-aware as well, like, no, really really look at yourself and really think about what your strengths are and where your strengths lie, and try to use that to to inform how you approach your art as well, you know as important as it is to be authentic, perhaps even more so in this day and age than ever before.
Speaker 2:I think a lot of artists kind of struggle with that concept because there's often this culture of imitation I've got to do this like they do, or I've got to do that. I think a lot of young artists feel that pressure of kind of right okay to sell my music to, to get it over the line and get it to a bigger audience, I have to go on tiktok and be silly, and you know it's not always the case, is it like there are? There are plenty of other routes to market these days, but I think sometimes that uniqueness that sits in all of us in some way or another is perhaps the hardest thing to find in a lot of young artists. You know, if there is, you know if there is an idea in somebody to go right. I don't know who I am yet, but I might find that through the way I'm writing songs or whatever it might be. But it's a beautiful thing to witness when that does happen. It just takes time isn't it Definitely, definitely.
Speaker 1:When that does happen, it just takes time, isn't it? Definitely, definitely, and I think it's a myth that artists need to to go on tiktok and start being doing silly things. Now, I'm not saying that now, some artists that works because they can do that and and and they're good at that and and that works. You know, if you think about even someone like Lewis Capaldi, you know a huge part of his success is obviously not only the great songs and the great voice and stuff, but it's also a huge amount to do with his personality and him building up a following on Instagram at the time, through, you know, doing dat funny videos and and and the, the, what. Him building up a following on instagram at the time, uh, through, you know, doing that funny videos of of him just being very glaswegian and scottish and and doing doing all that and that. But that was him. That is what he is like. Um, now somebody else doing that. That isn't naturally like that. Trying to to replicate that will not work. It will never, ever work. And so I you know again this conversation about content and building content around your music to promote it, because that is, like it or not, that is how you promote music now. That is the best way of getting any sort of discoverability. It's as simple as that. But that, but I don't think that has to mean that you've got to talk to camera or do vlogs or do whatever trends or are happening if, if that is just you playing your songs acoustically in your bedroom, then that is what it should be. If that is what you do, that is what you should do. Now, whether people will resonate with it is a different thing, you know, because they might not, and you have to be prepared to accept that and either carry on regardless, regardless, and look to build a small, dedicated fan base of people that are, or pivot and and try something else.
Speaker 1:You know, I I give this example a lot. I did some work with this amazing artist called leo um. You should check her out if you haven't yet. She makes really cool music. She's you mentioned earlier about you know, artists having that thing and and me saying to you that when I was an artist, whatever that is I never had that. I could write songs, I could play, I could sing, I could do all of that. That bit, whatever just the thing is that makes them cool and just something. I never had that anyway, she has that in bucket loads and I did a single for her a couple of years back.
Speaker 1:I remember talking to her about this and she was saying how much she just hated having to post on TikTok and you know, blah, blah, blah. But she was giving it a go, trying it. She's again doing what I'd suggested, which is, you know, just posting about her music, not deviating from that, not trying to do anything else, keeping true to just posting about her music, not not deviating from that, not trying to do anything else, keeping true to just posting about her music, whether whether it's studio stuff or live stuff or whatever it was. And she was like I'm not getting anywhere, no views, you know 100 views here. Just really, really fed up, disillusioned by it all. Anyway, she then decided oh, do you know what? I'm going to just do a silly video.
Speaker 1:She was going out I think she was going out for a night out with her girlfriend and she wanted to create, like a slicked back hair, look Right, this kind of slick back hair. So she used lubricant in her hair just to create that wet look sort of style of hair. And she thought you know, I'm just going to do that Film myself, doing this Like I kind of get ready with me type of video, you know, just just for a laugh, just literally getting ready for a night out, stuck the camera on, put the stuff on her hair, slicked her hair back, done and posted it and went off. Sure enough, that's the one that goes viral and gets like however many hundreds of thousands of views. And so initially she was like brilliant, there's eyes on me now.
Speaker 1:So now I'll start, you know, posting about the music and see if I can convert this into something. Sure enough, posts about the music, nothing. Then does another video of the same lube in the hair thing and it so. So then she was like well, so what? What do I do now? Am I just the the lube in the hair girl like, and nobody gives a monkeys about my music. Like how is that fair? Like what? I don't understand, you know, I mean that now she's she's going from strength to strength. I mean she's she's now got loads of followers and it's all going great. And she just played at blood fest with a young bloods festival and like oh, right, okay it's all going great.
Speaker 1:But at that moment she was like I don't understand this thing, I don't get it. You know, and I think there's a lot of artists that will, that will have found that, and that's why I think, with TikTok, you do need to be a little bit careful about about what avenues you go down, because if you think that doing silly viral stuff is going to be a way that you can get eyes on you, to then get people interested in your music, you are living in a fantasy world. People don't care about your music, they, they will care about the, the silly nonsense, and if that's what goes viral, then that is what you do on tiktok now and you run the risk of really boxing yourself in to this little weird viral niche and nobody, nobody's going to give a monkeys about your music.
Speaker 2:You know, no, no.
Speaker 1:It's like yeah.
Speaker 2:Do you know, that's a really tricky one. I battle with the same thing with a lot of artists, and it's, you know, it's interesting because in that situation I am instinctively thinking the solution to that is surely to not kind of overly sell the music and have it as source music, or have it linked is as part of the delivery when you post it. So it's like you're not selling the song. Hey, here's me doing my hair, but in the background there's this song. You don't have to notice it, but that's then going to build data that you use as leverage to get another festival slot or whatever you know, and that's the. It's a shame, isn't it? But that's kind of an insight as to what? But artists don't always think like that, do they that want to be heard and think, oh, I don't want to have to be silly to do that, but the music can still play a part in that.
Speaker 1:It just doesn't have to be the front end cell, does it but, yeah, exactly, but unfortunately, like it's, if you're an artist and you're really good at writing songs and and performing on stage and singing and playing instruments or whatever it is, that is great, that that is a skill set. Creating content is something completely different. Yeah, yeah, and some artists are lucky and they do, they are also very good at that and they are creative in that way. Some artists are just not, and it's those artists that I think are feeling really hard done by because they're like, well, I'm, I'm being discriminated against because I'm not good at that one very specific thing, which seems to be the only vehicle that we have. Um, and to those artists, you know, my advice to those artists is forget that. Leave it to the people that can do it. Don't worry about it.
Speaker 1:You focus on maybe doing things in the more traditional sense, like go out and book a term, find other artists that aren't good at TikTok and and put it on a tour.
Speaker 1:You know, you could even call it the not on TikTok tour or something. You know and it's for artists and it's a and it's a collect. Find a collective of artists who don't want to do that content stuff and start getting out there in the real world and build yeah, you're not going to build a million fans. You know, in a, in a day, you might, over the course of a year, build a fan base of 500 dedicated fans that you can have in a, in a whatsapp community, and they'll buy tickets to your shows and they'll buy a limited run of vinyl if you put one out, and because that actually is probably a more sustainable business model than building a huge following on tiktok in a very short space of time. And whilst that's great and it might last a couple of years or a year, there's no guarantee that's gonna no, no, it has to be springboarded into something else.
Speaker 2:Do you know, jamie, I met an artist recently that um is very popular on tiktok, but they don't talk to camera, they never show their face, and um, and I was really intrigued. And actually what they do is um film content on their phone of life, right. So, like one thing I saw was like this bird like kind of taken off off this cliff I think she was on holiday and she took it or something like that, anyway, just visuals and then syncs her music to those visuals, and, uh, I was like that's so clever, like it's like you're doing the synchronization, the artist synchronization there, and saying you mean, the only worry is, though and this is the sticking point for her is that that conversion from tiktok onto spotify isn't happening yet.
Speaker 1:No, and that's the trouble yeah, and the thing and the difficulty is and it's the age-old story with, with, uh, with the music business and that is that people take the exceptions to the rule as being the norm, if you know what I mean, because there will always be an artist, for whatever reason, it does convert, and they get a million followers on TikTok and then it does convert to Spotify. There will always be those exceptions to the rule, but that's what they are. They are exceptions to the rule and you can't look at them and think, well, I'll just be another one of those because so much of it is out of your control, you know?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah it's so true. It's so true, um, jamie. Slight change of subject. Let's talk about project management and intellectual property. How do you this is a subject that's kind of come up a couple of times in the podcast so far how do you go about discussing song splits and master splits across like all your projects Is there? I dare say it probably varies quite a lot with whoever you're talking to, but is it something that you kind of figure out very, very early on before you work with somebody, or do you just kind of you you know how does that look for you?
Speaker 1:yeah, no, it's. It's funny actually, because I actually did have a conversation with a group of students about this relatively recently and I think in you know um, because often in the sort of academic sort of um world, if you go to study music or or and I know both you and I lecture and so this might be something you're familiar with you'll often get told turn up to a studio session with your split sheet, make sure the splits are arranged ahead of time. And I said to these, these songwriting students, I was like don't do that, because as much as that, like I appreciate, yes, on a practical level that seems like a sensible way to do things. I agree. However, what the reality is compared to what the you know, what it maybe should be, are two different things.
Speaker 1:If you turn up to a songwriting session with you know two, three, you know people you've never worked with before, and you immediately get a contract. You know a songwriting split sheet contract out and you bash it down on the table and try and get everyone to sign their name on the splits, it's going to be a bit weird, I'm afraid and listen, this might be controversial, but in my experience that is going to set a slightly weird corporate kind of tone, and that's just not the way that these things often go, in my experience at least. Now, that's not to say that these things don't need to be discussed, because they absolutely do. My uh advice is to go into the session, write the song. Then maybe later that day or the next day set up a whatsapp group, say, oh great song, guys had a great day. Just want to check everybody. Cool, with a straight four-way split or whatever. Maybe put it in an email, just get everyone to respond to it and that's as good as as as anything else. Um, um, so I love that.
Speaker 2:Sorry, jamie, I know I love that because, um, yeah, you're right, like I, yeah, I've field questions about that all the time and I I mean, jamie, I'll level with you, right, I am one of those people that says you've got to talk about it early on, yeah, however, I'm listening to you now and I'm kind of sat there and I'm thinking what you just said then makes perfect sense, because you're still doing that, but you're just doing it after the song, straight after the song, really like later that same day or the next day, but not not leaving it five years until the song's gone. You know, but I love that. That's a really, really good way to do it.
Speaker 1:I just, I just think that and you'll know this look, if you're a songwriter, producer, whatever, and you're in that world where you are co-writing, you are collaborating with lots of, lots of different people on a regular basis. It's networking and you're building a network and you want to build relationships with people. Starting off a really and they are a big part of it is personal relationships, friendships with people that you're going to collaborate with. If you start that off with, with getting them to sign like a contract and stuff it just for me it just sets the wrong tone and I've been in situations where people have I've tried to do that and and it. It can not always, but it can set, you know, people's noses out of joint a little bit and they think about all right, calm down, you know what are we all signing contracts for?
Speaker 1:We're just here to write a song. But you're absolutely right, it is something that has to be addressed early on. But I think it can be done in, because I do think that often people imagine the professional music industry to be a lot more professional than it often is. Yeah, you know what I mean. Totally, it's like you know, I'll say to students don't send like a formal cv to a, an artist or a writer you're working with, or or even if it's a label or a studio you're trying to get, like, don't send a formal cv, that's just again. There's nothing wrong with it.
Speaker 1:Like if you do, it's not the end of the world, but all I am. What I am saying is that in my experience generally it's quite a lot more casual than that. A lot more happens over instagram, dms and stuff like that and, and I just think, especially when people are, you know, young, young, you know, writers, producers, who, whatever they're doing, or just people wanting to go into into the industry more, maybe more into the kind of label, publishing or whatever side they, and that actually I should say, actually with the caveat that is slightly different, that more corporate business side is different that does operate more like the the normal corporate world. If you're trying to get a job at universal, yes, they're going to want a formal cv, there will be an interview process and blah, blah, blah. So that you know I should say that.
Speaker 1:But in the creative world it is often often a lot, lot more casual and when you're trying to build a network and you're trying to build relationships, it can just often set the wrong tone going forward. So I think approaching it in a slightly more casual way that's not to say that you don't still do it, but, like I say, it can be done in a more casual way definitely address it early, like you said, don't leave it down the line, because that's when things can start to get a bit murky, particularly if something does happen to take off and, and you know, lots of money starts to get involved. That's when you know people's memories can get can get a little bit foggy you know, were you in that room.
Speaker 1:I don't remember um but um. But yeah, approach it early. Just send an email to everyone. Just say great day, guys, love the song. Just checking, everyone's okay with the four-way split. Just ping me an email to confirm and nine times out of ten everyone will go yeah, great, love the song. Yeah, I'm cool with that and that's it. That's your contract. That is as legally binding as anything else. I've got that proof. That is enough. If you want to go the extra mile and say and say, look, would everyone be cool with signing a split sheet, then you can do that. You can absolutely do that and that's fine. But that is. That is good enough.
Speaker 1:And in terms of the actual splits, for me it's it's. If you're in the room, it's a straight split down the line, however many people are in the room. You know it would be very unusual for me to suggest anything otherwise, and that is, I'm afraid, regardless of whether you feel like you contributed more or not. Again, if you felt ultra strongly about it, like somebody turned up, you know, an hour before the session ends or something, and the song was already 90 written and they've just stuck a word on the end yeah, okay, maybe there's there's scenarios whereby you could, you could argue yeah, the straight split is just not fair. But if everyone's been in the room from the beginning, for me it's a straight three, four way split on the publishing.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:That, I think, saves any awkwardness. Again, a lot of this is to do with building relationships and wanting to be. You want to be fair, obviously, and, like I say, if there is a situation whereby you don't think it's fair, then absolutely speak up and and and sort it out. But generally speaking, a straight split is just gonna, is just easier and easier to kind of keep track of. That's the publishing side, obviously, as a producer on the master side, yeah, that that that varies wildly.
Speaker 1:You know it can vary from, I mean mean my bread and what I would sort of call my sort of bread and butter clients who are, you know, unsigned artists, who are really either just starting out or sometimes they're just hobbyists and they're not even necessarily trying to to do any any. You know they're not trying to sort of actively try to become a, a big artist or whatever. Um, but for them I I wouldn't even take a, a cut of the master. You know it would just be a straight, straight buyout. They're paying for my service, um, and, and that's what it is. You know they'll pay me per track and and there'll be a production fee and and that'll be it. You know, I wouldn't even generally ask for a, a percentage on the master, um, if it's a slightly more established artist whereby it is more, there is more of an infrastructure there, um, then typically it would be a fee, uh, you know, a production fee, production and mixing fee, um, that's recoupable against maybe a four percent um, four points, you know four percent, yeah, yeah, on the master. You know three, three percent production royalty, a one percent mixer royalty. If I've produced and mixed it, that is, of course, um.
Speaker 1:But then of course there's also scenarios whereby the artist goes oh, I haven't really got much of a budget, you know for for production, you know can do it. So then you know it might be well, okay, you can give me a much, much more reduced rate, uh, but I'll want 50% of the master and it will split it. Um, that would be, that would be at my discretion. You know, I would say whether, whether I was happy to go ahead with that because you know we're we've all got to got to eat, we've all got to pay the bills. That would be in a scenario whereby I was, I was passionate about the project as well and and had belief in the artists and because, ultimately, what they're asking us to do as producers at that point is invest in their business.
Speaker 1:So they're asking me to not be paid the money now and for me to essentially invest dragon's den time. You know, do I believe that there's any sort of potential for me to get a return here? And if the answer is yes, then I'll entertain it. If the answer is no, then it might be a case of well, look, you're gonna have to either go and find some funds from elsewhere um to to to fund the production fee, or or maybe it's just you, you go and find someone else to produce it, you know yeah, yeah, that's fair, that's it well.
Speaker 2:Thank you for your transparency. It's, um, it's again find myself nodding along, mate, because, uh, we have very similar values on these things. I think, uh, I love that, uh, jamie. Final question for you, mate, and you have kind of talked about this at points. But to simplify this now, imagine if the Jamie Sellers of 2024 could spend an hour with the Jamie Sellers of 2010. Wow, what would you tell him?
Speaker 1:Gosh, that is a big, that is a great question. It's a tricky one. It's a really tricky one. I mean, I think I, you know. I would say keep doing what you're doing. You know as much as the you know. It might feel like you're not getting anywhere, or you feel like you're doing all of the right things. You know you're feel like you're not getting anywhere or you feel like you're doing all of the right things. You know you're moving in the right direction.
Speaker 1:I think I've been very fortunate. I think I've had a good run of it. I don't know if I would necessarily tell him to do anything different. I think I would tell him not to worry so much about it, because I think the Jamie Sellers of 2010 definitely had this idea of success in the music industry being this, this destination that I was trying to reach.
Speaker 1:And I think what happens partly with age and with experience and as you start to actually reach some of the things that maybe you've been striving for and working towards all this time, you reach those points and then, of course, you carry on past them and you realize, oh, it's not like once I get that number one record, that's going to be it and everything's going to be brilliant and I'm going to be, and that's going to be, I'll have made it. And I'm fortunate enough that I have, you know, reached some of those things and you sort of realize, oh, it's great, and I'm not, certainly not, you know it's, it's fantastic and it's always a great achievement, it's validating, it's all of those things. But I think you realize that you sort of get there and you go well, I'm not, I'm obviously not done, I'm not finished, like I know, you know, and I think it's so much. I would sort of say to him look, enjoy everything, because that is what success is. It's success in music for me is waking up every day and going.
Speaker 1:And I remember someone that I studied with one of my friends that I was in a band with at uni. He said this we were having a conversation, we're just coming up towards graduation. I was like what do you think you want to like? Do, like what? And he was like mate, I just want to make music. I love with people, I love.
Speaker 1:I was like that's brilliant, and that's always kind of stuck with me and I think, if you can, if you can say that you are as successful as anyone else, and and I think, yeah, I think that's what I would say is is stop focusing so, worrying so much about getting that thing and stressing out about trying to get this cut or that whatever, because so much of that is out of your control. It will either happen or it won't. And you could I mean you, you know listen, music is one of those things where you could work twice as hard as the next person. Do all of the right things, do all all of that and it still just might not happen, and that's just the way it goes. I'm afraid it's not fair, but that's just the way it is. So don't worry about it. Just keep doing things that you love doing and things that you enjoy doing and working with people that you love working with, and I guarantee you, if you do that, great things will happen.
Speaker 1:No-transcript. If you don't quit, something might happen. If you quit, you definitely won't make it. If you don't quit.
Speaker 1:You might, you know, and that's that's. I think that's the, that's the thing. You know, you know and I think and again, this is something with experience and stuff that you start to, you know you start to realize often it's at those moments where we are kind of at our are the lows of the dips, because you know as well as I did, johnny, the music industry is like this right, you get waves where everything's great, you've got this cut there, and there's, this is happening here, this is all exciting. And then there's the troughs where the phone stops ringing. You're not, nothing's happening, you can't get a cut for love, no money, you've got no, nothing's exciting is happening and that's it. And I think, often, when we're at the bottom of those uh troughs, those are the, those are the tests. Those, for me, are the music industry going? Are you prepared to keep turning up even though things are not happening? Are you prepared to push through this? And often I find that I found that those moments are the moments just before something really exciting happens. You know, for example, I was I was actually telling someone this the other day that I think that the closest I've ever come to like jacking it all in and just thinking right, I need to do something else now, because this is just. I can't live like. This was 2021.
Speaker 1:I actually had quite a good pandemic period, like some quite good stuff happened around that time. I was just, for whatever reason, a lot of exciting things and then 2021, it just like it was just like nothing was happening. I was really struggling, really struggling even just my bread and butter production work. I was struggling to make ends meet, even, you know, and I certainly didn't have any like good cuts on the horizon. I wasn't working with any big artists or even artist projects. I was excited about nothing was happening.
Speaker 1:And I really really got to the point where I was like, turning up to the studio, going, I don't really know what to do today. I've got nothing, you know. I've got no, nothing to work, you know. But sure enough, and I really had the conversation I had to have this internal conversation like maybe, maybe that's it, maybe I've kind of I've had a good run and maybe I need to just pivot now and I need to just think of something, something else. Maybe that's, you know, maybe I've had a good run and that's just what it is. Anyway, I didn't, thank goodness, I kept turning up to the studio and desperately trying to just scrape together enough work. Anyway, that was, I think, the summer of 2021. Six months later, I had a number one record with elton john and ed sheeran.
Speaker 1:So that you know for me was the perfect illustration of you've just got to keep going. There's going to be rubbish moments and there's going to be great moments. That's amazing.
Speaker 2:Do you know what, jamie? That? My um, my son, was born that year, so his first Christmas number one was that song, was that one. So thank you because, my God, we sang it so much over that Christmas it's still one of the best Christmas songs in years.
Speaker 2:That one Well done, mate. Well done. Well, I love that story. Um jamie, can I just say thank you so much for being here, for participating, for helping the community around the podcast. There will be people that are inspired and touched by the things you said today. And, on a personal note, mate, honestly you are one of the best people in the music industry. You are loved everybody sings your praises everywhere I go, and for all the right reasons, and you deserve everything that you've got.
Speaker 1:So thank you, mate oh, that's really kind, johnny, no, listen. Thank you so much for having me on, and I should say absolutely, the feeling is mutual, mate, the feeling is mutual, um. So, yeah, you know, I love doing this, like I love we could have a 12 hour podcast, I think, oh god, I, I think so I think so it'd be fun, but we'd never get anything done.
Speaker 2:But I love doing this, like I love we could have a 12 hour podcast. Oh God, I think so. I think so It'd be fun, but we'd never get anything done. But it'd be good fun, it'd be great fun but no, thank you.
Speaker 1:Jamie, you're a top man. A pleasure, johnny, thanks mate.
Speaker 2:Oh, good old Jamie Love that conversation. What a what a dude, what a great guy, um, and really like just so honest and insightful. And you know, everybody, no matter where they're from, no matter what level they get to, it all starts somewhere, doesn't it? And everyone has their own story as to how this happened or how that happened. It's only when you look back and you start to go, oh yeah, that happened because of that, because I knew that person, because back in the day, I went there that day and did that thing. Everybody has those kind of stories and it just kind of hopefully resonates with people, because everybody does get their day if they work hard enough, don't they? Let's just roll back to something that Jamie said earlier.
Speaker 1:And I guarantee you, if you do that, great things will happen. Things will happen. If you keep showing up and you keep doing it, great things will absolutely happen.
Speaker 2:Bang on, Mr Sellers. Let's have a little bit more wisdom. How about this one?
Speaker 1:Great things and great opportunities will come along if you keep going.
Speaker 2:If you keep going. Well, there you go. I think all of us can relate to that on some level or another, can't we Thank you? Keep going, If you keep going. Well, there you go. I think all of us can relate to that on some level or another, can't we? Thank you, Jamie, Thank you everybody for being here and being a part of this community. Until next time, may the Force be with you. The Music Business Party.
