The Music Business Buddy
A podcast that aims to educate and inspire music creators in their quest to achieving their goals by gaining a greater understanding of the business of music. A new episode is released each Wednesday and aims to offer clarity and insight into a range of subjects across the music industry, all through the lens of a music creator for the benefit of other music creators. The series includes soundbites and interviews with guests from all over the world together with commentary and clarity on a range of topics. The podcast is hosted by award winning music industry professional Jonny Amos.
Jonny Amos is a music producer with credits on a range of major and independent labels, a songwriter with chart success in Europe and Asia, a senior lecturer in both music creation and music business at BIMM University UK, director of The SongLab Ltd and the author of The Music Business for Music Creators.
www.jonnyamos.com
The Music Business Buddy
Episode 20: Understanding the Producer's Role with Gavin Monaghan
Legendary record producer Gavin Monaghan joins me for a captivating conversation that promises to enrich your understanding of the music industry. Renowned for his work with icons like Robert Plant and Paolo Nutini, Gavin shares his journey from band member to esteemed producer, highlighting the transformative power of an informal apprenticeship. Discover how his venture, Magic Garden Recordings, in collaboration with Revolver Records and Warner Music, is setting the stage for aspiring artists to shine.
Ever wondered what it takes to create synergy in a music studio? Gavin enlightens us on the art of collaboration and the significance of reading the room. From unexpected opportunities arising when famous producers are absent to the magic born from teamwork and shedding egos, this episode reveals the secrets behind producing unforgettable music. We also explore the dynamic role of a producer in artist development, emphasising the importance of honesty and human connection in capturing an artist's true essence.
We delve into the complexities of songwriting negotiations, crediting co-writers, and the evolving challenges of managing a music career in the digital age. Gavin shares his insights on songwriting royalties and the vital role of clear communication within bands. With anecdotes about industry figures and the innovative licensing model with Revolver Records and Warner Music Group, this episode is a treasure trove of wisdom for both music veterans and newcomers. Tune in and be inspired by Gavin's dedication to nurturing talent and supporting artists in achieving their vision.
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The Music Business Buddy. The Music Business Buddy. Hello everybody and a very, very warm welcome to you. You're listening to the Music Business Buddy with me, johnny Amos, podcasting out of Birmingham in England. I'm the author of the book the Music Business for Music Creators, available in hardback, paperback and ebook format in all the major bookstores. I'm also a music creator with credits on a variety of major and indie labels. As either a writer or a producer, I'm a lecturer in music creation and in music business. Wherever you are, whatever you do do, please consider yourself welcome to this podcast and to a part of the community around it. I'm here to try and educate and inspire music creators from all over the world in their quest to achieving their goals by gaining a greater understanding of the business of music.
Speaker 1:Okay, so in today's I'm talking to the legendary Gavin Monaghan, who is a record producer renowned all throughout the world for his work with the likes of Robert Plant, ocean Colossine, paolo Nettini, the Twang, the Blinders, nislopi, the Holloways the list goes on. He is an absolutely sensational music producer and also the owner of a very legendary studio, which is Magic Garden Studios in Wolverhampton. Now, there is so much to understand about Gavin. He's one of the most impressive people I have ever met in this business. He's also one of the nicest people that you could ever wish to meet. In fact, I would categorise him as a national treasure in British recorded music. On top of that, he is just a fascinating person to be around. The way that he thinks about things, the way that he shares himself and opens up his mind in order to improve people around him is just something which is breathtaking and inspiring. I asked him about his approach to artist development and how he brings out the best in people, and I also talked to him about his new record company, which is Magic Garden Recordings, which works in partnership with Revolver Records, which is a company which has been going since, I think, the 70s. There's a real legacy to them, so it's a partnership with them and Warner Music, so it falls under the affiliation of a major label group. I'm very excited about what he's going to be bringing to the music industry with that record company, so I asked him about that as well. One thing to think about is Gavin really really respects the privacy of some of his very high profile clients, so he doesn't always use people's names in this interview names of A&Rs or names of bands. He really respects why he does that. I respect why he does that and hopefully you will too.
Speaker 1:Okay, I will shut up and hand over to the interview. I hope you enjoy this. Here we go, gavin Monaghan. Welcome to the Music Business, buddy. It is absolutely brilliant to have you here. Thank you for doing this.
Speaker 2:Johnny, thank you so much for asking. I'm really looking forward to talking to you. It's always a joy to be in your oh, mate, likewise you're too kind.
Speaker 1:Um so, first question at what point did you start to consider yourself as a producer, and how did that come about?
Speaker 2:um, I was in a succession of bands I'm not going to name any of them but, um, I spent a lot of time in studios and very quickly I worked out that being in a studio made me far happier than being on stage in some respects. Um, so at that point I started doing my best to hang around in studios as much as I could and then I realized I could make it into a career, providing I made the right moves and I tried very hard to observe the people around me. I thought had been successful, and the point I guess that I started calling myself a producer was the moment I became one. I'd done sort of an informal apprenticeship, you know, starting with the t-boy route and which used to be a real viable option then, which was some time yeah, you started through that route.
Speaker 1:Okay, I did.
Speaker 2:Yeah, a lot of people of my age did and it was an excellent grounding because a lot of the time when you make tea for somebody, weirdly enough there's a strange intimacy that you start to talk to them, you start to vibe with the artists. The producer on the session normally kind of appreciates a little break so that you make you kind of turn it into an event. You know, depending you have to read the room a lot in this job and sometimes there are natural breaks that everybody needs to consider important questions. So it's good if you're assisting to keep an eye on the temperature of the room and to try and aid the people in the room with doing the best job they possibly can. Try and be sensitive to what the artist is possibly feeling. You know, try and align yourself with the who that you're assisting so that you become this, somebody that everyone can confide in, and then you learn so much about the job, so much about the structure of music. Indirectly through doing that you learn a lot because you hear why people might be unhappy, why there are actual things, even if you're making tea, that you can do to make that situation easier. And whatever job you do in a studio, just do it the best you can and then you'll always get asked back to do either the same job or a slightly elevated version. That might be the next career run, might be the next stairway to what you actually want to do stairway to what you actually want to do.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, one day, um, there was a producer again who I won't name, who was quite a famous producer, but he was going through a lot of stuff and you know, there were quite a few occasions when he didn't turn up and there were quite a few occasions when maybe the band were questioning why they were paying all that money to somebody who actually didn't turn up, didn't really seem to care much about the end product, all the people he was working with and, as a consequence, I was the only person in the room.
Speaker 2:So, by default, I'd already been kind to doing this job. I'd gone from t-boy to tape operator, which is rarely a thing these days. I decided that I was going to just take the initiative and help the people in the room to achieve the best result they could, even though the person who was meant to be steering the ship had kind of jumped, and by the time we'd spent almost a week with him, with only sporadic attendance, during which time the band were kind of quite let's say, they didn't really give much away when he was in the room and the minute he left they were all kind of joyous again.
Speaker 2:And so we ended up making the record and then they said well, listen, we don't actually think it's right that this guy gets a credit because you've done the job pretty well. So I ended up getting the credit for that job and I didn't get the wage packet because he had a contract, but I did get the credit at the time and for somebody who was the age I was at at the time, that was a really big thing yeah so from that um, I started calling myself a producer and of course it alienated certain people who I really only wanted to tape off, or somebody who made tea, and while I had to make a living.
Speaker 2:You have to make the decision to be who you are and what you want to be, particularly in the music industry and other related arts stuff. Otherwise everybody will basically try and keep you where you are because it suits them. But what you have to do is work out what suits you and keep you where you are because it suits them. But what you have to do is work out what suits you and how you want to progress that is such good advice gav, so I love that.
Speaker 2:That's such good advice. Thanks, johnny. Um, it seems to me that everybody will just try and keep you in your place because it's kind of a selfish business and the focus is always has to be. If you're an artist, the focus has to be on you. I understand that perfectly. But I think the potential for collaboration is far more interesting and it also gets more interesting results. If you collaborate and you remove as much ego from the situation as you possibly can, the results you come up with are often far more interesting results. If you collaborate and you remove as much ego from the situation as you possibly can, the results you come up with are often far more interesting and people tend to like them better.
Speaker 2:I discovered this one quite early is that if you behave selfishly, you can kind of hear it. It's really weird. I listen to the records where that's happened. I think, oh, I don't really want to hear that again, but the ones where everybody entered into a real spirit of collaboration and something really magical happened, you can just hear it. You can hear how everybody just got into this little universe that you create together and things just become real really fast and all the focus just becomes actualized. It's a very interesting thing that I've tried to maybe tie and turn into a career a little bit is that I feel that the collaboration and the, the sum of the parts, is far greater than anybody's ego or anybody who might be bringing something into the room that shouldn't be there, and it's amazing how these people eventually just go, do. You know? This is loads of fun. I'm just going to do this. I'm just not gonna maybe behave like some sort of prima donna, I'm just gonna really join in and love this and you end up with something great, don't you?
Speaker 1:yeah, I'm sure you've had experiences like that as a producer yourself oh, yeah, yeah, I yeah, I mean totally, and it is one of those things where it's just energy, isn't it between people?
Speaker 2:And if that is documented, then it becomes legacy you know and all the best records are made like that. I think, whether the energy is a spirit of kind of anxiety because of a role visit by the label or because of something that maybe a manager said or something, maybe that there's a bit of trouble between the band members, that can be a tension that sometimes translates into the right type of song. But the sheer joy of creative energy is the thing that I'm really interested in trying to, to foster in in on every job yeah and it's not just a job, is it?
Speaker 2:of course no, why would we do it if it was just a job.
Speaker 1:Oh well, that's true, and I would say you're doing a bloody good job of it, mate, thank you. So let's talk, you know about, about being a producer in a room with an act, right. So you know, there there are times when you need to kind of intervene for the best interests of making a record, and maybe that's the direction that you're going with an artist. And then there's other times where perhaps the role is to kind of go yeah, let's document what's here, let's record this and mix this to the best it can be, because there's a little bit less work needs doing. How do you gauge the differences there? Because there's a lot of people that don't understand what a producer does right and what a producer is. So how do you kind of manage that, that distance between do we need to just take this and record this, or do we need to step in and do this and this? And I know it varies a lot, so it's kind of an unfair question in some ways, but what are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 2:I think there's a simple answer and a complex answer, and I'll try and give you a version of both, if I possibly sure thank you? The simple answer is every single engagement as a producer that you are invited and blessed to be invited on my ad um, particularly at the moment because people haven't got any money.
Speaker 2:You know, and that's never why I did it anyway. But the job of a producer is variable. Some bands or solo artists need somebody to to support them and to let them know that their decisions are good or otherwise. Somebody honest, confident. You know. Some people need more than that. Some people need an actual psychiatrist. Other people need a cheerleader. Some people need an arranger. Other people need somebody to actually show them how to get the best out of an instrument. Some people need to tell them that what they did as a performance was amazing, but there is something even better inside them that they can reach for, and it might be a combination of what they did and what they're capable of that you need to work out what's going to appear on their record so you get employed for your taste.
Speaker 2:Basically, you get employed for your discernment and your ability to foster a spirit that's appropriate to the record you're working on within the room, so that the people sitting in the room can be comfortable that they know someone is kind of driving the ship, but also it's them. They have to feel they're also driving. They have to feel like they're in the front seat too. Yeah, because if everyone's in the back seat, it's a very quick way to get resentment and to have to put yourself to set yourself up to be blamed for things that are not necessarily your fault. That often happens with producers. They're not going to blame each other, right? I mean most people making a record if they're inexperienced. They don't really blame themselves if a record goes wrong. To start with, the more experience you get, the more you realise that there are always reasons for everything. But you get employed for this job, basically to stop any of that happening and to do an appropriate job and do no harm.
Speaker 2:Don't try and annoy someone to get an angry performance out of them. Talk to them about the emotion that they need to find in the song and let them do that themselves. Let them feel in control of. Everything you can do is valid, you know you can go. If someone can't hit a high note, you can go and gaffer tape a freddie mercury mustache on them. If you know seriously I mean like you can help someone get into character you can talk about incidents that might have happened in their lives that they can use.
Speaker 2:You can talk to them about what they're actually trying to say and you can talk about technical stuff like their pitching and their pronunciation, but mostly the spirit you're looking for in particularly vocals but everything but particularly vocals is you are looking for honesty and you're looking, even if it's a fixed, a fictitious story. You're actually looking for an honesty of delivery, something that people are going to relate to. I think all the most successful artists are capable of producing things that people vibe with, that people feel that are relevant to them. That's why people will part with whatever it is these days their subscription, you know, know to actually enjoy your music is because they feel like they connect with it yeah and to get that you have to have a human element.
Speaker 2:It can't be all analytical, you know, unless you're making a real, even even the most analytical of music. You know that the most mathematical of equations has to be human and has to have soul, because if that element's missing, you really haven't got anything. Yeah, the soul is what you were trying to actually chase as a producer. The soul is in the band and it's your job to uncover it. So I guess I've just given you the complex answer instead of the simple answer and you know what?
Speaker 1:well, I love that answer, very happy to have the complex it's. So. It's so interesting to to have you open up like this, gav, because you know you're heralded right. There's so many people that love you for what you do, for who you are, and it's so nice to hear you talk like this because it's just, it's it's an insight into how you are in the room with people and it's you know it's wonderful. So I really appreciate you talking the how you are in the room with people and it's you know it's wonderful. So I really appreciate you talking the way you are. It's brilliant. Thanks, mate, I love it.
Speaker 1:Let's talk about artist development. You know there's approaches that can be used to bring out the best of and you talked there about being in the studio with people and trying to bring out the best in them in a kind of way that's authentic, without tricking them or whatever. What about? You know artists that are early on in their career, that are kind of trying to find that unique sound. You know, is there any advice that you can kind of talk about in regards to how artists can find that sound? You know, what things do you look for in an artist or a band where you kind of go. Well, how can we separate that act from others around them? You know any thoughts there?
Speaker 2:I think when you go into a working relationship with an artist, first thing I do is ask them kind of what do you like? What are you trying to say? Who do you feel comfortable being? How do you present yourself visually? I ask all these questions because it's a huge part of the answer you arrive at when you make a record. It's a little riddle. You know it's an, it's a jigsaw, and if you end up with a missing window, it's often something really simple you know, otherwise you get a picture with a hole in it.
Speaker 2:So you're basically spending your whole time trying to find the window or trying to find a couple of roof tiles to make the house complete. Um, so I always look for stuff, an angle. You know, there's always an angle. There's always something that you can make the artist feel that they're representing the most authentic version of themselves at that time. Because of course, that changes, because when you change direction, you don't necessarily have to present the same thing over and over and over again. I mean, some people like that, but mostly you want to leave room for the next step and you want to try and document the artist for who they are that week sometimes.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a good point. You, you know it's not all about. You know we have to be this thing for life. Yeah, it's. Who are you now?
Speaker 2:You know what does a photograph look like if it's taken today?
Speaker 2:You know what does a song look like when it's written this week, which is probably where most people are when they make their first album, like, they will have, you know, your 10 or 12 or 14 or 16 songs to pick from, depending on how prolific you are and what you've been asked for and right at the last minute, usually there's three or four new songs that get written, which end up somehow just making their way through this cast-iron decision that everybody's made and they end up on the record.
Speaker 2:Why is that? I mean, I think the reason that is is because people aren't a sum of the first 20 years that it took them to write the 10 songs that somebody's told them are the best songs they've ever written. At that time, often they've got new things to say, because we're artists, creative, inspired, you know and we're artists, creative, inspired, you know and we're inspired by circumstances, including being in the studio. So whatever you're looking at around you someone on the bus that morning you have to factor in the fact that somebody might come up with the next Wonderwall or something, after having seen the way somebody maybe looks at somebody opposite them on the journey and you capture that in the song yeah, that's a great way of putting it.
Speaker 1:That's, it's that sense of uniqueness, I suppose. Isn't it that people are searching for um, and it's a hard thing to make, because I've heard a lot of artists that kind of go you know what is my sound is it? Is it this element with this element? Is it that over there sometimes I kind of see them chasing their own tails and kind of being a little bit too close to their? What inspires them? I mean.
Speaker 2:I can give you one example again.
Speaker 1:I don't like naming no sure, I appreciate, you know these things are kind of it's like a little confessional being in the studio.
Speaker 2:It's great respect. It really is, you know, I think people, you know it's a confidential place.
Speaker 2:It's a safe space, if you like. There's one band I've worked with and they kind of sounded really like another band, but there was so much more to them than that and I worked out. I had to listen to it and I thought what if we remove the acoustic guitar? What if we take out all rhythm guitar actually and let's just make it all about the hooks and the vocal and a really really driving beat, okay, and let everyone focus on that. And then, when the chorus is okay, there'll be loads of space because the singer has a certain range and what's happening at the moment is he's getting drowned out. So you take everything out. That's obscuring the thing you want everyone to listen to, which were brilliant lyrics, and then, when the chorus is coming, you throw everything at the chorus so you get this down up, down up thing which was perfect for them and they went on to be incredibly successful. But at this point I look back at that and think that was kind of the moment they became what they were. They even changed their name.
Speaker 2:So, that is what you were looking for when you're working with a new artist particularly. They often have all the elements, but they're kind of in the wrong order.
Speaker 2:You know, it's like a tarot reading, when you get like four cards, three or four cards, and you look at them and you just think do you know, man, that doesn't look right to me. And you move things around a little bit and you think, ah, I see, there it is, there's the future. That is the answer. Why is this kind of you know? Why is this the way it is?
Speaker 1:and I love that. So that's removing things, yes, rather than kind of embellishing it's often subtractive the process of production is often subtractive.
Speaker 2:It's often there is too much here. What you're looking for is not contained in successive guitar overdubs. It's contained in removing obscurity, removing screens and removing smoke and removing stuff which stands in the way of your vision, until you are faced with a very succinct, interesting representation, a sculpture, which is often quite bare but is everything. It's a distillation of everybody that's in the room and that's kind of what you're after. You're always after this thing that you can see somehow. Yeah, you know, um, I mean, I'm neurodivergent. I see patterns and things. I really do, you know, and I try to use that in my job. Yeah, um, and this kind of thing for me is always a little puzzle, and you just end up at the end of it with this kind of almost a pictorial representation of all the people in the room. You know, you can really feel what it is, and mostly you've just got to take things away until you get to it, and then, when you get to it, you can maybe add a few things back yeah but you just put them in the right place.
Speaker 1:Yeah, once you can identify the other things, that are the prominent things yeah okay, that makes so much sense. Wow, okay, I love that. Um. Moving on to, it's probably like your less favorite part, gav, but it's just out of interest. Um is, if we talk like the business side of things, so fee-based services and points deals are a part of the negotiation process, often for producers, but often so is co-writing shares on song copyrights. How do you navigate your way through those subjects with different artists and labels?
Speaker 2:it's quite a difficult one actually that um, songwriting. Okay, like I mean, I've co-written literally hundreds of songs with people. Sometimes I get credited for that and sometimes I don't. I play on a lot of people's records. Um, I arrange a lot of people's records.
Speaker 2:Some people would say that's worth songwriting. Mate, you really should be a little more, um, insistent about this stuff. And of course, they are absolutely right. These days I'm a lot more vigilant about it because I realize that if you have a talent, it's actually worth something. But you must actually talk about that before you start doing it.
Speaker 2:You can't spring it on before you start doing it. You can't spring it on people. You can't just say, oh yeah, guess what I wrote your song. Because of course you can't. It's really disrespectful. It's not a conversation you've had, so you shouldn't actually expect anything unless you've discussed it first and you feel that it's appropriate.
Speaker 2:Sometimes, when I feel it is appropriate particularly if you're working with one person who relies on a lot of your input to actually construct the track in the first place yeah, you talk to them and you just go listen I feel we could step into songwriting. We should discuss the possibility of that and what it could mean. If you're comfortable with that, then we should discuss it, because it's actually going to come up over and over and over again for you. It's not just me. There are other people in this business who rely on this for their living and it's actually really valid to talk about the possibility that you actually contributed a vital part to their song, without which it wouldn't have been successful. And if that comes under the heading of songwriting, it's something to discuss and it's something to make sure that it's not some sleazy thing they think you've done. It's actually something that is part of the business that you're in.
Speaker 2:And sometimes it's not appropriate and you don't do it, you know it just depends on who you're working with, what the circumstances are and how you've approached it in the first place. It's not a dirty word, you know it's something it's actually a real kind of contribution.
Speaker 2:If you've helped somebody make their songs, you've maybe changed a few lines. I've had one specific job that again, I won't mention who it is, but I co-wrote pretty well all the lyrics and it was a major label thing and I'm pretty well on every song I co-wrote pretty well all of the lyrics, like really a lot of them, and I never even got a credit, but of course I didn't have. That is some time ago. Of course you know like that wouldn't happen now, but I remember at the time it being a big lesson to me that it is really possible that there are two. There are two. There are two kind of reasons for that happening.
Speaker 2:One is that nobody really knows about it unless you mention it right and sometimes they actually don't know that they should credit you, of course, and they see you in this role, whereas actually you've crossed over a line and become another role, and sometimes they think, oh, got away with that. One depends on how experienced they are and what their motivation is in the first place of course, yeah, you know that depends very much on who you're working with. That's a very good point out of the first place.
Speaker 2:of course, it depends very much on who you're working with that's a very good point Out of the first of those two options there yes, it's nearly always the first one.
Speaker 1:It's an interesting one because a lot of it perhaps comes down to education sometimes doesn't it. And it might be that let's say, for example, you're in a room with an artist and they just don't understand the breakdown of a song copyright or what music Musicians aren't known for their understanding of business generally.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, I don't mean that at all disrespectfully, but it isn't really taught or encouraged, because there are lots of people who do just that for a living and they wouldn't have a career if every musician knew exactly how to run their own career there wouldn't be no managers. So true, there probably wouldn't be that many labels.
Speaker 1:No, I think that's why a lot of independent publishers become publishers, because they were just very often organized songwriters that knew how to kind of collect and know how to exploit and then start doing it for their mates and all of a sudden there's a music publishing company.
Speaker 2:It's a real talent and it's a huge talent. It's something that is essential. If you find yourself the one in the band who's really good at business, sometimes there's another career at the end of it for you and into management, into publishing, into seeing, into lots of other things you know, running a label. There's so many options for the person who is good at business can add up, can remember to keep all their receipts, all the stuff that a lot of people really struggle with, because the business is actually full of people with adhd and with autism and people who have different priorities. I know you've touched on this in one of your podcasts oh yeah, oh, thank you, which I think is amazing.
Speaker 2:I really do, you know and people struggle with this because it isn't a priority. What the priority is is sometimes it's the special interest you have in making music, arranging music, everything about music, but really not about remembering to do the most basic things yeah you know accounting and all of the other stuff.
Speaker 2:I hear it over and over again. I don't know anything about it and people, of course you know it's a huge part of the job, but I can see why loads of people neglect it, because it's really hard for some people to just understand how vigilant you have to be in a lot of ways. Otherwise the same rules apply to you as would apply to Shell or, you know, ici or any of the big companies. It is actually, at the end of the day, the tax manager is going to demand his part of your earnings. So you kind of have to be very on top of your books and on top of your pensions and on top of all your other stuff.
Speaker 1:I mean, you have a manager right that manages you as a producer.
Speaker 2:Yes, giles Stanley. Yeah, Great okay. And have you had a long right that manages you as a producer?
Speaker 1:Joel Stanley. Yeah, Great, okay. And have you had a long-standing relationship with Joel?
Speaker 2:Yes, probably 10 years plus.
Speaker 1:Oh, wow.
Speaker 2:Yeah, a bit longer. Even you know he makes sense of some of the more rash decisions I tend to make. Just out of enthusiasm. I can be quite impulsive and I said I'm like, yeah, you see this huge kind of journey in front of you and all the incredible things you can do together with this great band, and he's like, whoa, hold on, let's discuss this and just work out what's next. And, of course, does this make sense? Does this other thing make sense? Does it all add up? Does it add up financially? Does it end up in terms of wear and tear on your psyche?
Speaker 2:All of the other stuff that you probably wouldn't consider out of sheer excitement, because it's a very exciting job and a lot of people sometimes, you know, I mean because it's not the easiest. You know it's easier, I guess, for someone like me who's been around for years. I've got this catalog of work that a lot of which was achieved when people used to go in and do a hundred thousand hardware copies of something over the counter in a week, and now, of course, it's not like that. You know, the discs on my wall some of them are a product of a generation that bought physical product. That's actually really hard to achieve with current streaming models. So I'm very grateful that in some respects a lot of my career was achieved during times when there was real recognition for it. Now it's hard actually to get a band to even credit you on Spotify, mostly because they don't know they have to do it.
Speaker 2:And people don't have that kind of memory in this business. You have to continually get on people and don't have that kind of memory in this business. You have to continually get on people and make yourself into a gnaws about it and just go look, you need to credit me.
Speaker 1:I was in the room. Yeah, and a lot of distributors don't know how to do it either. No, they don't feed the data correctly. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2:The fact that a distributor doesn't actually know how to write two lines in a box actually doesn't astonish me at all.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm sure they'll figure it out at some point. Yeah, I hope so, yeah.
Speaker 2:Because there's a quiet desperation that people have to do to get these production jobs now sometimes, yeah. There's an economic model that really doesn't work anymore. So you tend to agree to things you know. People maybe who haven't been around as long as me tend to agree to things that they shouldn't be comfortable with.
Speaker 2:And they actually should maybe look after themselves a little more. And everybody, of course including the artists, of course, you know agree to things, and there's always someone at the end of the chain who knows what's going on, which is kind of a bit of a theme. There's always someone there who knows what's happening and doesn't really say anything, and so you have to be sometimes the sane voice in the room going. Okay, we need to discuss this one thing. It's really important. I hear it a lot with bands who come in and they haven't really discussed who does what. What the division of songwriting royalties is. How is it going to affect people in the future? Does what in your band? Go and have the conversation right now. Go and phone up somebody, arrange to have this conversation or do a like a whatsapp group or whatever you do to communicate with each other. But whatever it is the time to find out is not when somebody offers you a record deal absolutely, because that will break your band up absolutely and somebody in the band will probably leave because they are supremely butthurt that they feel they're being undervalued. That is not a good position to be in. What you need to do is to sort this stuff out now, because otherwise you just end up in this position where somebody will just that your pivotal member, who feels undervalued, will just go and work in burger king because they can't deal with the fact that they were so undervalued that nobody actually thought what they did constituted songwriting. And of course, sometimes it doesn't, of course, but that's also a conversation you have to have. It's not just about sitting in a room either.
Speaker 2:I love listening to audio books, to biographies of sort of music people and the one thing. Recently I think I've heard quite a few of them and a lot of different perspectives exist on this issue, but I've just heard one, I mean by Bono, which is just like the experience that guy's got of music is unbelievable. Like the experience that guy's got of music is unbelievable. And to listen to someone talk about songwriting royalties, I actually found it really enlightening that somebody that famous love him or hate him. I personally I'm a kind of you know, I. I just think everybody's got this incredible wealth of experience to give you who've been in this business a really long time. So I'd recommend listening to some of these, but this particular one. They divide everything equally.
Speaker 2:The four of them divide everything equally and I think the manager gets the same. So it's probably five ways.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and there's a band that have never changed their lineup. There's no coincidence there, right, absolutely. They're happy, everyone's happy.
Speaker 2:Everyone's made a great. Not everyone will be that famous, of course, yeah, but let's say you were yeah. Yeah, do you really want? The only time anyone gets paid is when you do a gig or you change record deal? Yeah, because that's a recipe for disaster. Yeah, it is. It's a car crash waiting to happen.
Speaker 1:A lot of that also sits with rights management as well, right. Neighbouring rights when they're not being collected properly or people don't know about them or they're in a deal where that can't be Black boxing. All that stuff you don't know about, it's all in the background, all of this stuff.
Speaker 2:It's all education, though, isn't it? And they are all accidents all way into break your band up.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so definitely, you know I remember looking at um the, the coldplay album that came out recently, uh, which I I really like, um, my nephew was playing it for me, actually, and I was going through every song. I was like wow. And then I suddenly thought, wow, this is 10 albums in right, 10 studio albums in over like 20 something years, 23, 24 years, and, and doing what I do, geek out, look at the song credits. Who's got what? You know was max martin on this, where you know? Are you looking? You get. You see all the band members on there. Johnny buckland will chat.
Speaker 1:They're all there you know, and yeah yeah, there's another band that have never changed their lineup. They're friends, they value one another, and when one of them isn't in the room it doesn't work in the same way, and that doesn't always sit within the context of what a lawyer might see as a copyright oh yeah you know and uh, I mean I'm preaching to the converted, talking to you, of all people you know so much about band mechanics and and a lot of it sits a lot of the.
Speaker 1:The difficultness sits in a lack of education which is no one's fault, right, if someone doesn't know how you know neighboring rights works or how song copyrights work, you know, it's not, it's not their fault, they've been.
Speaker 2:They need to read your book, don't they? Oh well, I didn't know they really do. They need to read your book. It's brilliant. They absolutely need to read johnny amos's book.
Speaker 1:Oh, bless you. That's very kind. It's like I set you up for that then, isn't it it should?
Speaker 2:no, it should be just distributed to every band.
Speaker 1:It really did.
Speaker 2:Oh, every solo artist, everybody, Because it points out so much stuff. I'm actually very fortunate that they asked me to write a little bit in one of them and I've just been blown away by it and apparently, according to Louise, it's a standard issue for education now in a lot of respects, which is, I think, great oh yeah, yeah, that, oh yeah, yeah, hopefully that continues, but yeah, it's again.
Speaker 1:You know I'm. It's one of these things, gav. You know we didn't get in this for the money, right? No and and and that, okay, we have to pay bills and like, but I, I honestly that's why I don't make a big thing about promoting it all the time on this podcast, because, like, I don't want to shove it down people's throats. I'm that kind of guy. But if it helps people, it helps people right.
Speaker 1:It's the same way as you know mentoring bands or DJs or anybody you know. It's just we have to. It's on us, right. We have a legacy in this country.
Speaker 2:We've got more. We've got, I, more experienced than a lot of people, for sure, not all of it. Good, yeah, which you know, it's one of those businesses where there are no rules. It's kind of like the wild west, you know, and they've recently tried to. We were talking about this a little bit earlier, off off mic and um, the days, I guess, when I first started, and to a certain extent, the days when you started as well, johnny um, there was no transparent accounting, there was no logging in to see your royalties and every transaction. There was none of it. There was just some dude who owned a huge car and that was it really, and you got paid 30 quid a week and he got really to drive around in the huge car and drive it back to a huge house.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:And you know he'd be probably married to a supermodel and everything would be kind of gauged around what was important to that person yeah as opposed to the person who's actually doing the job. It's not like that now, you know, because I think there's some accountability, because everything obviously is traceable, everything's online now and they can't get away with it anymore. So the people who maybe used to do this to people can't really do it in the same way anymore.
Speaker 2:I mean, they'll always find a way, right, I mean you know, I think if you're intrinsically not a good person, you'll always find a way to do somebody out of the thing that you think you should have. But mostly it's a little easier now and I love the way that now you have access to exactly the same promotional companies. You have access to the same.
Speaker 2:You know, maybe you can't, you haven't got the budget to spend on it, but you do have access to it in a way yeah so you can actually do a much better job of putting a record out than you could have done in possibly the early 80s or you know whatever, or the 90s. You can now put a record out and do a decent job of it and make people aware of your existence. That was not even possible a while ago.
Speaker 2:No, no it just, you just couldn't do it no because everybody had it sewn up and they would actually literally send people out to buy vinyl records and dump them in the River Thames, just to send it up the charts. You know that was a job for somebody on a moped. They'd just go around to every record shop, they'd buy a bunch of vinyl and then they'd just go and dump it in the water. I mean, there are equivalents to to that now, but mostly you can't get away with that anymore either.
Speaker 1:no, no no, that's well thank god, for all sorts of reasons. Yeah, yeah, um finally, gab, I wanted to ask you about your label. I may just say congratulations by the way.
Speaker 1:Thank you, my friend when you told me about you know, the fact that you've been approached about having your own label that is affiliated to a major label, I, uh, I thought, wow, well, how hasn't this happened yet? You know, because you're like, you're such a good mentor, you know, you, you, you are, you are, you are a nurturing, kind, lovely person. So it makes perfect sense that you see a lot of music coming in and out and, okay, there might be acts that you've worked with over the years that you know that are of music coming in and out. And, okay, there might be acts that you've worked with over the years that you know that are signed, that are wrapped up in deals. Therefore, you wouldn't be able to kind of necessarily be, uh, hands-on with what happens with their music, more so making the music. But now you're in a position to actually create a new golden era of legacy in your career, which is your record company, um.
Speaker 2:That's the aim, Johnny.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm sure you will. That's definitely the aim.
Speaker 2:You know, I've been offered a collaboration with the legendary Revolver Records, who are affiliated to Warners. The ramifications of that is that I am able to put out records I truly believe in with people I love, and what better way to spend your day is there than that? So I, you know I will be looking for people to put this out. We've got a couple of lovely releases planned, two or three. You know I want to put out a lot of records. I've got a lot to give as far as helping people just achieve their, their destiny yeah, you know it's not their aims or they love or any of that.
Speaker 2:It's their destiny. That's what I'm interested in. It's like you should be doing this. You are good enough. You are a person who can give people the experience of wonderful music and everybody should hear this. That's the kind of artist I'm interested in working with, somebody who really shouldn't be kept back by current structures and quotas of major labels and any of that stuff. I'm certainly not sony and I haven't got much of a budget and, to be quite honest, a lot of the artists are going to be end up maybe contributing or whatever. But the main thing is I want to put out a volume of music which is absolutely unbreakable yeah, something, a legacy which people can actually understand, and to keep the quality to an absolute zenith.
Speaker 2:I'm only interested in superlatives in sendury brilliant music, so send it in.
Speaker 1:I want to hear it. Oh the good. So how would people find you to be able to? Where would they be looking to send you to Right?
Speaker 2:this is so new that I haven't even put the website up yet. But you know we have got some real big announcements coming really soon. We're currently preparing for this. This week is kind of an exclusive, where it's probably the first week I'm talking about it. I'm kind of almost being forced into talking about it because it's so exciting.
Speaker 1:I'm forcing myself. Well, I appreciate this is an exclusive for this podcast. That's very exciting.
Speaker 2:So I just, you know, at this point I would just love to hear from people who are gonna just blow me away, so great. If you want to send me anything, send me a link to magic garden studio at gmailcom. Uh, at this point, all I can do is talk to you. All I can do is tell you about ambitions for the future, but we've got a solid, concrete plan of doing something truly, truly exciting. Great, and I can't wait to start on it.
Speaker 1:I love it and it's a really fair deal. It's a really nice deal. It works well for indie artists, but also it's a licensing deal, right? Yes, so it's not like ownership, it's a licensing deal whereby you know recording's, a license to you to distribute, to release, exploit, etc.
Speaker 2:Five years yeah.
Speaker 1:Five years Brilliant. Wow, that's such a lovely deal.
Speaker 2:Well, it's better um. We own all your rights, including mars right yeah yeah, yeah, and it's better than we own your ass for 28 years. Yeah we actually don't really believe in that sort of thing and I think if you can't get your shit together in five years, why are you even doing this?
Speaker 1:yeah, wow, so look, you can good example for many.
Speaker 2:You know you can. You know you can moan about it, but at the end of the day I just want to put great records out and of course everybody wants to make a frightening amount of money out of that.
Speaker 2:Hopefully will happen in some cases because you know the, the artists. That it's not that you pick them to work with like you got or anything, but you develop a certain level of taste in this business and also people gravitate towards you if they have a certain level of taste. So you meet in the middle and you come to an agreement to do something, hopefully life-changing for someone?
Speaker 2:if not, then you tried right. You know this business is not built on solidity or certainty. It's a gamble. Every day is a gamble. So if you don't understand that, then just get out of this business, because it has no place for you. Go work somewhere else. You have to understand that it's a gamble and you have to understand that if people are going to bet on you, then you just do your best and you expect the best back. You expect their best as well. That's what.
Speaker 1:I want. That's solid advice, solid advice. Thank you, gav, so much for being here and for talking to me today about all this. You do so much for so many and your work speaks for itself, right, and I wish you nothing but good luck with all your projects, all your ideas, the record company, everything else that you're doing. Thank you for being here.
Speaker 2:It's been an incredible pleasure. Johnny, I will always come back anytime you ask me, because I love you to bits.
Speaker 1:Ah, bless you. Well, there you have it. See, I told you he was a great guy, didn't I? He's so interesting, isn't he? Just watching him as I was talking to him. I get hairs on the back of my neck just enjoying the things that he says and the things that he talks about. He's just fascinating. No wonder he's heralded by so many successful musicians. He is, of course, a multi-platinum selling producer, but he's so much more than that. He's just a very, very, very special man, and it was an honour to have him on the Music Business Body today. I hope you've learned a thing or two. If you haven't rewind it, listen to it again. You will. There's so much to what he said. Anyway, until next time, everybody, thank you for joining me here and may the force be with you.
