The Music Business Buddy
A podcast that aims to educate and inspire music creators in their quest to achieving their goals by gaining a greater understanding of the business of music. A new episode is released each Wednesday and aims to offer clarity and insight into a range of subjects across the music industry, all through the lens of a music creator for the benefit of other music creators. The series includes soundbites and interviews with guests from all over the world together with commentary and clarity on a range of topics. The podcast is hosted by award winning music industry professional Jonny Amos.
Jonny Amos is a music producer with credits on a range of major and independent labels, a songwriter with chart success in Europe and Asia, a senior lecturer in both music creation and music business at BIMM University UK, director of The SongLab Ltd and the author of The Music Business for Music Creators.
www.jonnyamos.com
The Music Business Buddy
Episode 22: Creative Consultancy with Bonded Directors Tilly Wellard and Benji Charles
What does it take to transform a lockdown project into a thriving creative hub? Birmingham's own Tilly Wellard and Benji Charles, the masterminds behind Bonded, answer this question as they share their inspiring journey. As rising music executives, Tilly and Benji have created a vibrant platform that connects and spotlights talent across music, arts, and fashion. Their innovative approach not only highlights Birmingham's rich music scene but also bridges creative collaborations by connecting like-minded artists. Throughout our conversation, Tilly and Benji discuss their mission to build a community of independent creators, emphasizing the importance of authenticity in fostering genuine connections with audiences.
With candid reflections, Tilly and Benji reveal their personal music tastes and the challenges of maintaining authenticity in an ever-evolving industry. They explore the golden age of authenticity, celebrating artists who speak from the heart and share their stories, which resonates deeply with fans. Their insights into navigating social media landscapes, like TikTok, offer a fresh perspective on how artists can find joy in their creative processes while balancing personal boundaries. This episode underscores the significance of genuine artist-audience relationships, where fans become friends, leaving a lasting impact on both the creators and their supporters.
Our discussion also touches on the dynamic nature of the music industry, as Tilly and Benji reflect on their journey and the future of Bonded. With an eye toward bridging generational gaps, they highlight the importance of mentorship and collaboration with seasoned professionals to keep the industry innovative. Their forward-thinking perspectives and ambition reveal a promising future for Bonded, with potential integrations into major music corporations. As we wrap up, the energy and vision of Tilly and Benji reassure us that the future of the music industry is both exciting and inclusive, driven by new talent and fresh ideas.
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The Music Business Buddy. The Music Business Buddy Hello and a warm welcome to you. You're listening to the Music Business Buddy with me, johnny Amos, podcasting out of Birmingham in England, of Birmingham in England. I'm the author of the book the Music Business for Music Creators, available in hardback, paperback, ebook format, and I'm also a music creator with credits on a variety of different major labels and indie labels, tv shows. As a writer or producer, I'm also a senior lecturer in both music creation and music business. Wherever you are, whatever you do, consider yourself welcome to this podcast and to a part of the community around it.
Speaker 1:I'm here to try and educate and inspire music creators from all over the world in their quest to achieving their goals by gaining a greater understanding of the business of music. Okay, so in today's episode, I am interviewing two people, both of which are music industry executives and both of which represent the next generation of music industry professionals. They are superb. They both work for record companies, they work for artist management companies, but together they have a brand called Bonded. Now, bonded is a creative, focused media platform highlighting both upcoming and established innovators within various creative industries. So, through their own kind of editorial content across digital and video formats bonded, highlight the vast amount of talent within the uk creative scene. So they really have their finger on the pulse of what's happening right now and also not just their knowledge across music but also across other arts and fashion and a whole variety of different things, including an understanding of how to spread music across various different shared interests. Now, of course, this makes them very, very useful to a whole wide variety of different people, but predominantly artists, labels and managers, and they are excellent talent scouts as well.
Speaker 1:So let me hand over to the interview. I hope you enjoy it. They're two great people that live in this fine city of birmingham, where I am based, right in the middle of england, um, so they came into the studio to talk to me and here goes I hope you enjoy it tilly wellard hello and benji charles welcome. Thank you very much. Welcome to the Music Business, buddy. I'm so pleased that you're both here. I look at you two and I see the future. You know what I mean, not in a kind of weird way, but just in a sort of. You represent the next generation of music industry professionals. You are tastemakers, you are label people, you are creative consultants. You are exactly what this business needs now and moving forward, so I am so pleased to be talking to you both.
Speaker 2:It's brilliant thank you for having us. Oh, thank you, I've been looking forward to it, yeah good, okay, so let's go straight into bonded, right?
Speaker 1:so you you two of you own a very, very, very exciting brand called Bonded, which I'm sure will be a global brand at some point in the future, but for now, you've been like you're what four years into Bonded. For those that have never heard of Bonded before, how would you explain what it is?
Speaker 3:Do you want to take the lead?
Speaker 3:No, ben, ben, you go, you go okay yeah, so about four years ago, we had an idea to kind of create a space for creators to kind of like connect and kind of collaborate. Um, it was during lockdown when we started it, so, like it initially started as like doing like written interviews and reviews and stuff of like people's music. So, like you know, any sort of consumer can kind of come onto our platform and learn about new things that are happening. And then, yeah, we kind of like built it up to this thing now where we're doing like video content, moving into events, uh, and yeah, we're just trying to do some like build a community of like people that are independent and like trying to do something cool.
Speaker 2:Basically, yeah, I think, um, the one thing that we started at the beginning was every interview that we did.
Speaker 2:We'd ask that artist or creative who they think we should know about or who they're working with, and then we'd interview them or then we'd link them up with somebody else, because it is exactly what it says on the tin.
Speaker 2:We're trying to bond people together through creativity and I think one of the things that's made us think about this a lot deeper was I can't remember who it was, but we was talking to a rapper and they were saying how their favourite music is classical music and we were like you would never know that if you didn't interview them and ask them the deeper questions. And then we knew a videographer that also loved Mozart and we were like you two should link up, because you guys would have so much fun not only just creating but just talking about things that you love. And it just kind of spiraled and we're both very passionate about Birmingham music and it's a slept on city in terms of creativity and we just wanted to basically showcase so much talent that we had in the city and then very quickly, we were having artists from Amsterdam reach out to us and things.
Speaker 2:So it grew it grew quite quickly, but I think we kind of haven't always developed that growth. In terms of what we're trying. We're trying to achieve the Birmingham stuff, but we're not going to restrict ourselves, but when it feels right, that's what we're going to do is always go back to birmingham and back to our like roots and our, our base that's that's well, that's really good.
Speaker 1:So you know, for the benefit of of those that don't know much about birmingham, for example um, so it is the city that we are in right now. It's one of the largest cities in northern europe, the second biggest city in the uk, the biggest outside of london, um, and there's a rich heritage of music here, right?
Speaker 1:so I think a lot of people go oh, that's where heavy metal came from right so you know, that's kind of that's the heritage that came before us, sort of 50 odd years more than that now ago.
Speaker 1:But since then things have changed, particularly sort of since the dawn of the digital era, right, um and I don't need to say that to you because you are the next generation, you're the younger generation before me. You see a lot of the stuff that's going on in this city right now, um and with, so if we like bond that, that, if you will, you'll pardon the pun uh with, uh, the fact that you know you've got this kind of thing whereby you're linking people between what they like and what, and and and what they do and how that links with other people, which actually falls really really really well in line with a lot of what the major labels are trying to do right now. If you look at the I know, for example, the latest ifpi. If you look at, for example, the latest IFPI reports, where you look at sort of audience relationship and experience, it's all those things are like sharing shared interests between artists and their audiences, kind of like what people are trying to do organically on TikTok, for example, but you're actually doing it on the ground.
Speaker 3:Yeah, right.
Speaker 1:And that's kind of where scenes start. You know, that's a very, very, very, very exciting thing yeah I mean you, you, you, I know you've both got your finger on the pulse of a lot of things that are going on locally and therefore things that will grow and could grow, you know sort of internationally and stuff. What do you look for in artists? You know, when you get you get loads of artists thrown to you, right, oh, listen, oh, listen to this, listen to that. What are you hoping to hear?
Speaker 2:What are the good attributes that you're looking for? The thing that we always go by the rule, and it's when we're thinking about who we want on a line-up for an event or who we want to interview, who we want to represent bonded next we always say it's just got to be cool. One thing that we've tried to do throughout Bonded is build our own brand and who we bring in on that in terms of artists and creatives really reflect our taste and what we're trying to show and that helps us then hone in on our audience of if you like this artist, you will like that artist. We don't want to kind of saturate Bonded and just be interviewing anybody and putting anyone on a stage. Alternative is normally our go to. I think, as soon as I look at an artist, I kind of I know you shouldn't judge a book by its cover, but I think one thing that we've learned through bonded is it's not just about the music yeah in terms of what we do.
Speaker 2:It's about how you present yourself, how you talk about your vision, how you, what clothes you're wearing, what art you're supporting, and that's ultimately what I look at as the music could be great, but if you're not got high quality pictures and you're not representing the sound and the vision and they're not like coinciding together, then we're kind of like does this really make sense? Yeah, okay, yeah.
Speaker 1:That's very, very wise. See no wonder you're both on the you know doing well on the scouting side of things and all that you know. Yeah, wonder you're both on the you know doing well, on the scouting side of things and all that you know. Yeah, that makes perfect sense. Like you talking to you now, it's like it's like talking to a, and our directors, you know that kind of, have this vision of like right. Yeah, yes, it's about the music, but it's about where the music fits and to do that, you have to understand where the artist is that right.
Speaker 2:We're in the golden age of authenticity right now if something isn't authentic, people just sniff it out rat it out and don't want to be a part of it. And the thing is we're interviewing people because they've got something to say yeah and we've had our fair share? Haven't we been where we've interviewed people and they've come back with one word answers and we're like we can't run this like you haven't you haven't got anything to say, and I think that's so important with every artist now is this is you've got a platform now as an artist.
Speaker 2:If you don't want to write it in your lyrics, I'm not, I'm not and I'm not saying you've got to be political and you've got to say all of this stuff that you feel uncomfortable saying because of whatever reason. But speak from the heart and tell us why you're doing this and what it means to you, because people don't want to hear. Oh, my favorite song was this. I want to know why. Is it your favorite song? When did you hear it for the first time? Where was you? Where do you listen to it? Now? It's like people for consumers, the, the industry is at arm's length and it's not always accessible, and we're just trying to not only showcase artists and creatives but let consumers be a little bit inside this world. That seems so far away and it's yeah, like I don't know how to explain it yeah well explained, yeah what about you Ben.
Speaker 3:What do you look for?
Speaker 1:in an artist. What kind of gets you excited, I think for me and Tilly.
Speaker 3:We have completely different.
Speaker 2:Oh sorry.
Speaker 3:For me and Tilly. We both have different music tastes, which is quite good, but I think the thing we concentrate on is just quality control and we want to be like a trusted voice. So, like the things that we're promoting, we want to be like proud that we're promoting that if that makes sense, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:But, um, yeah for like. For me it's all about finding like. As an artist, it's really cool when you can kind of find your voice and find things that you enjoy, Like everyone's got to make like video content and stuff. But if you can enjoy the process of doing it, that goes through to your audience. If that makes sense, it does so. Um, I don't know like there's a lot of people that do certain types of videos because another artist has done it and it's just copy and paste and like. Now, if you can kind of come up with an idea that you enjoy, like that, just yeah, it really resonates with people, I think yeah, that's it.
Speaker 1:That's a very, very good point. Um, I think there's a there's a lot of um pressure on, you know, a lot of young emerging artists that kind of go right, I, I have to be silly or I have to do something, which will, you know, go viral or whatever you know, and I, I, I spoke to a lot of people that have had viral moments and they don't even know how it happened. You know, there's no, there's no formula for these things right.
Speaker 3:That's the authenticity of it, though, isn't it Like the people love that? They want to be able to think that they know you in some sort of way. So if they can kind of get any part of like your character, like your true character, out of the content that you're making, then you can kind of relate to that, rather than putting on an act because you want to come across as a certain way people can sniff out.
Speaker 1:Like you say, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's true, isn't it? But it's interesting, though, because I think there there are a lot of artists that because they're seeing a lot of their you know, the music that influences them and the artists that influence them, seeing what their behavior is on social media etc. And going, oh god, I have to be that way in order to be able to have any chance of getting my music out there. I'm not really sure that's true, is it?
Speaker 1:I think it's more of a case of first of all, it's not 2020 anymore right so, you know, tiktok is in a different place now compared to what it was four years ago. It's perhaps not as effective as it was in that sense. So people are having to be more, they're having to dig deeper, right, tilly, you mentioned about that kind of uh, you know going. Why is that your favorite song? Why is that your, you know? Yeah, that's what people want to know. Right, just peel back the layers and show us who this person is that's giving us this music, because that will be the thing that catapults them to their audience.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure. I think, like Ben said, consumers want to feel close to an artist. You kind of you find so many artists now calling their fans their friends and their best friends and things like that, and it's it's a really great way to connect with the fans. And I think boundaries are really important for artists, of course, but these, the way that you keep consumers wanting more is by giving them a lot to start with, and I think it's if you're at surface level there, they don't know what they could get because it's net, it's not in existence.
Speaker 2:Consumers these days, if it's not in front of them, their imagination will just it won't span over to what could I have from this artist? It's more. Oh. That artist is doing it already. So I feel connected to that artist. I know why that artist has wrote them lyrics. I resonate with that. So I now feel closer. And again, it's all about connection and bonding people together and I think somewhere along the line sometimes all creative industries lose that, especially when it's a lot of money involved and things. We're forgetting that we should feel very honoured that artists, in whatever form, whether it's music, whether it's painting, whether it's music, whether it's painting, whether it's in film and tv.
Speaker 2:Everyone that creates something, they're an artist, in my opinion yeah and we need to be very honored that they're making that and they're sharing it with us, because, god, some of the songs that people put out, it's like their whole world is on display now and if it touches one person, that artist is like, oh, buzzing. You've been through what I've been through. Let's be friends and it's just about connection. I think Connection, yeah, 100%.
Speaker 1:That's it. It's right at the heart of your brand, right? That's the whole purpose of it. Do you know? What I love about your company as well is that it started from a very real, organic place. You've allowed it to kind of grow up, if you will, and your ideals will have evolved during that time as well. You're learning more and more and more about how the whole music industry works and, of course, you're supplementing that by by educating yourselves outside of bonded right, by doing all the other things that you're doing. So, you know, let's talk about kind of what you're both doing in the music industry outside of bonded, because it all adds value to what you're doing in your brand, right? Yeah, so I mean.
Speaker 1:So, benji, you're working with b83 right, yeah so so b83 are, um, you know, a record. What do you want to say a little bit about?
Speaker 3:b83. So, um, b83 music group, it's a record label and management company based in birmingham. Um, yeah, so I do marketing for them, uh, work on a lot of their campaigns and stuff. Uh, under the roster we have like artists like jk, uh daps on the map, um xeno, like the list goes on and on. You've got fly boys, like some really cool, like really cool artists and stuff. Um, but, yeah, like there's been a lot of campaigns that I've worked through there that have taught me so much that I can kind of bring back to you know the thing that me and tilly are building and it's just super important to just get dug in, I think oh yeah, absolutely gosh.
Speaker 1:So you're on the marketing side there at b80? Okay, wow, and so. So b83. Um, they're affiliated to a major label, aren't they?
Speaker 3:yes, so, uh, we're under the orchard um okay, so so Sony.
Speaker 1:Yes, so Sony.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so yeah, we've.
Speaker 1:Wow, okay, and so basically Sony, or the Orchard part of Sony, put money in and then go right, you go and do you develop talent and market it and find a home for the brand, because it's like a very cohesive brand B83 Music.
Speaker 2:Group, isn't it Like?
Speaker 1:there's a specific style and that kind of thing, and it's headed up by Desper right, Desper Robertson who is a legend.
Speaker 2:Yeah, he's a legend. Lovely, lovely guy. We're all smiling as soon as you mentioned Desper's name.
Speaker 1:We're all smiling.
Speaker 2:We love.
Speaker 1:Desper, yeah, so, okay. So where's so your role on that? Is it to also to create like asset banks and stuff for the campaigns and then market those to more marketing releases rather than so?
Speaker 3:obviously, for the most part, it's really creative, so it's creating assets like shooting videos, being on set for like music videos and stuff like that, Obviously working on shows for the artists that are doing like gigs and stuff throughout campaigns and listening parties, signings, all of that stuff.
Speaker 2:Like.
Speaker 3:I get the chance to kind of work in between all of these different avenues because it's quite a small team, so you get all hands on deck. You know it's really, really fun. But for the most part I'm like creating social media assets, um, obviously like monitoring trends and stuff, uh, or like using analytical tools to kind of yeah, like reinforce campaigns and like yeah yeah, it goes on and on.
Speaker 1:That's fascinating because, that just makes you so useful to so many people, so many corporations, so many artists.
Speaker 2:Yeah, honestly, this guy, I'll get a message at 10 o'clock at night and he'll be like you never guess what's just happened. I'm like oh, no what. And he's like so and so's just released this thing and it's like it's gonna be, it's gonna be massive. Ben told me about AI probably five years ago and would tell me you've got to get on it, you've got to get on it, you've got to get on it. And I was like okay Ben, okay Ben.
Speaker 2:Now I'm like Ben, what's that thing? How many times? Probably in a week, it's probably at least five times a week. I say, ben, what was that thing that you told me about the other day? And one thing that Ben won't shout about himself enough is that he is a cracking videographer. When he says he's at B83 and he dips into all these things when he gets his hands on a camera, everything it everything at bonded this guy's done in terms of visuals because he's just got an eye for the camera and he should hype him if he's not going to hype himself up about that, I am because he's very good at it wow and so okay.
Speaker 1:So so is that then an idea? So do you do you do that thing where you'll kind of listen to a song and then reactively get ideas for visuals? Yeah, definitely, yeah, 100, I see, I see sounds and see like a vision of.
Speaker 3:But when you listen to a song you can kind of almost picture it, as if you can think of like a movie or like create like a movie around like a certain sound, then you're in the right direction like I see it when I'm listening to music.
Speaker 1:Really, why can't you do that, tilly? Is that?
Speaker 2:yeah, it's called synesthesia or something isn't it well.
Speaker 2:Well, it's like if you, when you listen to a sound, it reminds you of a color and stuff, and I think both of us that's one thing that when we have an idea with bonded, we're both like we go, we go back to basics of pen and paper and we just create this massive mood board of like what would we do, even when we're, when we're talking about what our event's going to be called and everything, within the first 10 minutes of ben coming up with the name. I'm like this is what the logo is going to look like, this is what the theme color themes are, and I think we both do that very well and our brains work very well together in that sense. Yeah, definitely.
Speaker 2:Just constant creativity, isn't it? Yeah, on the way here we were both saying our brains just don't. Some people can go to sleep and don't think.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 2:We can't do that. We cannot do that.
Speaker 3:I have ADHD, so like literally.
Speaker 2:Oh, do you.
Speaker 3:The brain just does nuts up.
Speaker 2:You know, it's like oh really Some people can just.
Speaker 3:Well, we were kind of bugging out because some I was told that some people can just sit there and have nothing in their mind and it's like I have this constant like thought, like fucking process. You know that happens all the time.
Speaker 1:Like I process you know that happens all the time like I can't not think, but do you?
Speaker 3:do you think that that is something actually you're using positively?
Speaker 1:as well, because it's like you know, okay, that's wow so many people in this business, right with adhd yeah like I think there was, I think, episode 13 on this podcast.
Speaker 1:I interviewed a guy called james dellen who who kind of, I think, only found out three years ago he got adhd. And he started looking back and go, oh, wow, okay, that explains this and that and that and that and uh. And since then there's a few people that have come to me and said, hey, look, I'm really glad that you, you know you brought this up in this episode. No, not that I brought it up, james did, he was very brave about it, but but it's making me look around and go, oh yeah, some of the best people in this business are people that are neurodivergent right.
Speaker 1:Because it's like the pathways of thinking are just so different from the norm that that's what makes you kind of so useful to people.
Speaker 2:Is that a fair analysis? Yeah, 100%. It obviously has its down times. Sometimes you overthink, and sure you can't sleep. And the amount of times we've both had to say to each other, okay, like, let's not think about it now. Oh, we'll message each other. Like, especially ben, ben will be, I'll wake up in the morning, like 3am. What is it? What's wrong? Is everything okay? And it's like yo just had a sick idea and I'm like ringing him straight away. What is it? What is it? He's like oh, like, can you meet up today? And I'm like, yeah, and then, but that's how, every genius idea I've got to give Ben a lot of credit in terms of some of the craziest ideas he's come up with I've probably said let's hold that for a second. And then, two months later, I'm like you know that idea you thought about, I've thought the business through of it now, oh, really, we're yin and yang, aren't we? I'm probably the more like.
Speaker 2:I mean to coincide with Ben's ADHD. I have OCD, so it's it's like two sparks in the middle. And then they're like you've got these great ideas, let me structure them. And then it's kind of like I don't know how many calendars I've set up for ben and he's just like whatever, wow, do you know?
Speaker 1:what? Obviously you work well together and you have done for a few years now and you will do for a long time to come. But what's really interesting? It's so interesting. I'm listening to you both and I'm thinking to me. It feels like you're like the missing piece of so many major music corporations, right? They kind of go like well, we've got this, we've got this budget here, we've got that artist, we've got this, we've got that, and something just doesn't click and it's because they're not thinking about the things that you're talking about.
Speaker 3:Yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, like you honestly be careful with that right Because you don't want to get like or maybe you do, but like in Bonded could very easily like become an integrated part of a major company. And you know, okay, I'm sure that you know you'd explore that.
Speaker 2:It's essential, yeah, that you know you'd explore that right. Yeah, it's something that, when we have, we set our short-term goals and long-term goals going into a label is something that we've both constantly mentioned throughout this process, but I think we want to do it right and from the I genuinely believe the reason that Bonded has worked so well so far is because, before anything, me and Ben were consumers of music and art, so we've always got, and we still are. We're still as much as we work in the industry. We have a very great balance of saying that's the industry. Whoa, yeah, we're consumers. Yay, bonded, merge them together. Yeah, and okay it's.
Speaker 2:It's something that we listen. If any labels are out there that like this idea shout us out, hit us up, but they don't understand your vision, right? Yeah?
Speaker 1:otherwise you just you go oh, bondi was so cool, and then this happened, and then you know what I mean. You've got to be because you built it right, You've got something really special here. Okay, so on the label side then, Tilly, so you've, you've. You've been busy these last few years, haven't you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I essentially went straight into A&R. I studied my dissertation on A&R and was fortunate enough to meet this lovely lady called Eve who forever I will sing her praises. She's an amazing woman in the industry, amazing industry person as a whole. Don't even think we need to put the woman label onto it. She is an absolute boss.
Speaker 1:Was she the lady that you reached out to when you were still studying? Yeah and you did you interview her or something.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I was initially. I initially reached out. I mean, I was god. I was that annoying kid that I would not recommend to anybody to do this, but it somehow worked for me. Um, I messaged a bunch of A&Rs and I'm talking like presidents of labels being like, please, will you do an interview. I think I emailed. Okay, no, I didn't email him. I was getting name dropped but I did not email him because that would have been dangerous.
Speaker 1:But basically I reached out to I wonder who now?
Speaker 2:Okay, dangerous is the wrong word, but he's a very big guy, okay, and I've never met him but no, no, it's not him um, he's a very big guy in the industry and I would love to meet him one day and just pick his brains about how he does, what he does right um okay but I don't want to ruin my chances so I'm gonna say'll talk about this in the book right there.
Speaker 1:And, by the way, tilly, you are in the book right in the music business for music creators and I love it that you're in that. Um.
Speaker 2:So you, I talk about premature introductions and the concerns with that sometimes, because when we can dm someone we can be like and we can get ignored right yeah and then it's like awkward when you meet somebody yeah, I mean god, I was 19 19 when I was doing all of these messages and thank god, a lot of them didn't see them and I've then later met them through getting a job and stuff yeah, yeah, but it paid off right, yeah, so eve mess I. I was a again, johnny, you'll know you as my tutor as well.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I was always that one that would panic that my assignment was going to get handed in late. So I'd put it in two weeks early. So by the time that Eve messaged me back, I'd already handed in my dissertation. But I was kind of like look, I have watched you on other seminars for other things and I still just really want to pick your brains regardless of whether it's for a dissertation or not?
Speaker 2:Can we just have a chat From there? She was like AWOL are looking for somebody that's going to be on the ground looking for some new music. I then met my boss, matt Riley, who works at AWOL still now. He's doing amazing things.
Speaker 1:So, just very quickly for the audience. So AWOL, still now he's doing amazing things. So just so, just very quickly for the audience. So AWOL. Artists without a label right. Started out as an indie company, now part of Sony. Now then he went to Cabal and then got sold from Cabal to Sony and to the Orchard actually, ah, okay so, uh, so you. So you were by the time you'd started at AWOL it, it was already acquired by the Orchard right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so it was going through the competitions authority. So I started in the AWOL building that was kind of not part of Sony, and then I think I was there for about a year and a half just over a year and a half so I then was part of the whole Sony transition, ended up getting like a full-time job as a scout, moved to London, um, and it was amazing, an amazing experience. I was very fortunate for the team at AWOL that they allowed me to be part of the process. There wasn't kind of just like go and find the artist, we'll handle. It had an amazing team that were kind of like if you want to learn?
Speaker 1:yeah, because you you were like brokering deals and stuff, right yeah.
Speaker 2:So I was kind of wasn't, as like I was having conversations with the law team within it. They were teaching me the ropes. I never actually did a deal, but I was in the meetings. Uh, was there saying we should really sign?
Speaker 1:this and sign and stuff.
Speaker 2:Well, because of you yeah, I was going and take whining and dining them, and stuff but the funniest thing is, you can take the girl out of Birmingham, but you cannot take the Birmingham out of the girl I helped sign. I was part part of the process of signing an artist called Nivella, who is insane. We went to NQ64 and Five Guys. Oh, wow, okay, that's where we went and we had a great time on Guitar Hero and then she's still.
Speaker 1:That's so much better than the Ritz.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, that's so much better, and she even says to me now she's like God, like I don't like this fancy food. But, yeah, like I don't like this fancy food. Um, but yeah, shout out to Neve. But um, yeah, she's still at AWOL now. She's just announced a European tour, which is amazing. She just came off tour with Girl in Red and again, like I just love seeing even though I'm not part of AWOL anymore, I just love seeing people do amazing things. I've gained so much valuable knowledge. Let's just take a step back. And then I went and met Adam and Becky who owned Juicebox, which was like a management, artist, label services company.
Speaker 1:Oh, yeah, okay. So then you kind of ventured into the artist management side, yeah, so which God, I learned so much on that.
Speaker 2:I still work with Adam now for Second Nature Artists, but in a freelance scope, because again took another step and was like, okay, this isn't quite working for me either. I know I want to work in music, but I'm not sure what. Let's just take another step back, get back home, get back into bonded stuff. So I'm doing a bit of freelancing, a&r and creative consultancy now, um, but at Juicebox I was there for about another year and a half. Um learned again. So much was learning was doing A&R. There. I was basically, instead of finding artists and saying let's manage these, because the roster was kind of where adam and becky wanted it to be at, I was kind of more doing sessions, had an artist called dogs who's a great jazz artist who I'm still working with now as well.
Speaker 2:Um, dogs, dogs insane the craziest thing was me and ben. Like we talk about work, about b83 and juicebox, awol and stuff, but when we get into bonded we're so like switched on to it that sometimes we forget to tell each other things like so ben's like let me play this guy, he's sick, it's dogs.
Speaker 1:And I was like oh, dude, I'm working with him he's amazing, like, so you're working, and then the fact that he is telling you that you're like because you know he's got his pulse right said that that means you're doing your job right exactly that means and means that me and ben are both on the same page as well.
Speaker 2:But um, yeah, I mean um advancing shows and all sorts in the management part of it, and I basically just went into that job like, look, this is my passion. Whatever you need me to do, I'll do. If I don't know it, please teach it me and then I'll do it.
Speaker 1:Okay, that's a great attitude.
Speaker 2:But I'm here Like okay, some days it was sit and pack 100 vinyls, sit with the artist, let them sign them. Then you're going to pack them and send them to the post office. Yeah, and people probably think, tilly, you're in a and r, like going to fancy meals and award shows and stuff, and why are you sitting now packing vinyls? And it's like because it makes me happier, but it also is teaching me something. We're still the next generation and that generation hasn't reached the managerial positions yet so we've still got so much time to learn and it's just, yeah, I think.
Speaker 2:Now I'm kind of just at a point where bonded is the priority and we want to have our own company and we want to do things our way. I think, and that's not in a way of god, these people are doing it wrong. Don't tell me what to do, kind of thing. But it's hard to get through with your outlook to people that have been in the industry for so long that say this is the way we've always done it, this is the way it's worked. Let's stick to what we know that?
Speaker 1:that right, there is a major battle, right, mm-hmm. So, okay, so I'm 45, right, and I see the generation your generation, if you will right, the younger generation that's so switched on doing everything like I look at you and I go, yeah, especially you two. You're doing all the right things, the right way. I'm proud of you honestly.
Speaker 2:Thank you, I mean it, I mean it.
Speaker 1:And then there's, like the generation above me who are, who are kind of like the, the old guards of the industry. Right, I'm not going to name any names, but there's a lot of people, especially in the uk music industry, like that, and actually I do see it both sides, because where many of them of the older generation, if you will are so preoccupied by their old patterns and policies, yeah, that is very difficult for them to move forward.
Speaker 1:I'm not defending them, by the way at all here but it's very difficult for them to be able to move into a different world at the rate in which the world moves yeah, it's going quickly.
Speaker 3:It is, isn't it?
Speaker 1:and um, and but here's the thing they won't. They're not the future of the industry. Right, you are, and so your way is right now, even though it might feel like a challenge to you to educate them, it is going to be your way, and I, in the middle age between the two, I'm very, very, very mindful of that, because the industry that they used to be in doesn't exist anymore it's been replaced by something which actually is a lot more exciting and certainly a lot more equal.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we all have the same access to the same tools and we can all do, you know, so I, I hear that. Yeah, I hear that.
Speaker 2:And I think, the one thing that I think will make that work because I don't think that the the people have been in the industry for years and years are doing it wrong. I just think there's some fresh ideas that need to be done, and I think you do this amazingly, johnny, and it's mentoring. I think if, if you can get someone that's been in the industry for 10-15 years and somebody that's just starting in the industry and put them together, granted, both me and Ben can be naive in terms of when we're getting into this industry, we've got these ideas. And then someone's like okay, but what about this, what about that? And then we think, oh, we didn't, we didn't think about that. And they're like well, how are you going to do that? And that's where mentorship comes in, and I'll go back to Eve with this and I will sing her praises for years and years and years. She mentored me, along with other people. I mean, johnny, you mentored me throughout my whole university career and even to this day the reason you don't hate me.
Speaker 1:That isn't it Exactly.
Speaker 2:And the reason we're sitting on this podcast now is because you've continued to mentor me and gave me advice, and I think that's where everyone just needs to drop their ego and their pride a little bit and just the younger generation need to accept we don't know everything.
Speaker 2:The older generation need to accept new things are coming in that they don't know about and and it could change the game, it could completely change it. And the orchard I mean god ray, coming out of polydor, going into the orchard and absolutely smashing it, winning brit records. Yeah, ray, I look at ray and she literally I've got goosebumps thinking about her because she has changed the game yeah again and again.
Speaker 2:the orchard has adapted to that change and I think when you can adapt to independence and some artists fit a major label, and then they're gonna fit that, some artists fit to independence and I think the likes of the orchard awol label services, they're finding that middle ground and I think we say this all the time, don't we, ben? Balance is key.
Speaker 3:Yeah, definitely I think as well with like experience is always like amazing, you know. But I think with such a fast paced industry and like you you say things changing all the time and new things happening, new platforms and new trends and all this stuff, like there's so much to think about that you can't keep up with it. So, no matter how much experience you have, like that makes you wiser and it makes you like you know industry like wise and stuff, but on the ground, for the consumers, you've got to think about what it is that they want and that is complete.
Speaker 1:That changes every day absolutely, and I think your generation have been um. I hope you don't mind I word it that way. By the way, no, I've been conscious.
Speaker 2:I've been like the older generation and I'm like so many people are gonna be like tilly are you calling me old?
Speaker 1:my mom and dad I mean, when I say so many people.
Speaker 2:My mom and dad are going to be like are you calling us old?
Speaker 1:no, we're not, we're not. No, no, it's. Um, yeah, so easy to get in trouble saying the wrong thing isn't it, uh, but, uh, no, it's, it's but, but, but you've got your, you've got. You're very in touch with what people want, and that's the key thing. Right is that? And you, and I think, unfortunately, as we get older, we do lose that a little bit, which is why the you know, scouts are so useful to a and r managers and a and r managers are so useful to a and r directors. Well, you know this till it right you both know this right.
Speaker 2:The amount of times I've had um so tiktok, it's not my thing, I won't go on it, but you're younger so you know it right. And I'm like yeah, but like yeah come on like I don't. I mean tiktok is. Does anyone know what tiktok does? And the algorithms? I mean? We spoke about it earlier, didn't we? How like things just blow up overnight and you're like how yeah, but there's a lot of cool yeah, I think now there's a lot of legislative or potential legislative stuff coming in we always say what's next after tiktok?
Speaker 3:I think it goes back to youtube culture, doesn't it? Do you reckon yeah?
Speaker 1:I guess. So yeah, yeah, I mean the thing is, whatever the, sometimes the question there is more exciting than the answer, because there's always going to be the next thing isn't there. There's always good, there always has been. You know, like there's. You know, after my space it was like you know, wow, what, what could be bigger than this?
Speaker 3:and then along comes facebook, and then yeah, exactly twitter.
Speaker 1:And then it's like, oh, what's this instagram thing? What's the same thing, which with pictures oh, that won't take off. And look what I'm there you know, if there's always the, the next I mean you're the trend guy yeah if, if ben's saying it's youtube, it's gonna be. I'm just thinking that you know when you, when you said you instantly went back to the youtube, I was like, okay, yeah, I'm just, I'm just literally I'm following you. Now ben ben says it, I'm taking it.
Speaker 2:I'm starting to believe that ben sends sets these trends oh, yeah, because he just knows them.
Speaker 1:It's too suspicious that he knows what's next but, um, I mean, it's great, right, you, you both, you both individually offer so much to the companies that you consult for and work with right, but when you're together and you do bonded, it's so special thank you.
Speaker 2:Thank you, I think sometimes we don't see that because we're so in it yeah we always say this like sometimes we just need somebody when we're trying to figure out next steps and we're a little bit like do we think this will work, do we not? Sometimes we just need somebody that's out of it to just say this makes sense because, we're so indulged in it it's like we can't get out of it. To see it from another perspective, you're on the right path.
Speaker 3:Keep doing what you're doing. I get it.
Speaker 1:It's so easy to kind of go are we on the right track? And actually sometimes the answer is yes. You just need to keep walking Because, objectively, when I look at you two and and bonding, and I just think it's to me, it's very clear as to it. You know it's, it's a, it's a creative agency that either stays independent or gets swallowed up into a large conglomerate, but it'll always be the vision of you two right and and you will always be useful as a consultation brand, uh, for ideas, not just in music, right, for loads of other things, and where music fits into everything else as well.
Speaker 1:You know, um, I think you're amazing, I think you're brilliant at what you do and I'm really, really excited to see what happens next. Thank, you I think it's just gonna get better and better from here. We've got some cool ideas yeah, you have, haven't you?
Speaker 3:and I know it's too soon to talk about and better, from here, we've got some cool ideas. You have, haven't you?
Speaker 1:And I know it's too soon to talk about what those are right now, but will you come back and talk to me again about it?
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely Okay, that's nice If you'll have us, phil. Oh, of course, we've yapped and yapped, of course.
Speaker 1:No, thank you, Thank you. Thank you both so much for being here, for contributing to the music business buddy. I really enjoyed sitting here and talking to you both. Good luck with everything you're doing and keep me posted, okay, 100% yeah, thank you for having us.
Speaker 3:No, thank you for having us Not at all Well done guys.
Speaker 1:Ah, that was a fun interview. It was so nice to sit with them and talk to them and just understand their mindset and their approach to their work. You know, as I mentioned earlier, they, to me, really represent what the future of the business is going to look like, and when I listen to their ideas and I understand where they're going and what they're trying to do, it makes me very excited. It makes the future of this business feel very protected and safe in the hands of people like Tilly and Benji. So I appreciate them coming in and talking to me. Okay, that's about it for today, but I will see you next time. Thank you for being here. Everybody, don't forget to rate the podcast and all that kind of stuff. I'll see you next time and may the force be with you. The Music Business Party. The Music Business Party.
