The Music Business Buddy
A podcast that aims to educate and inspire music creators in their quest to achieving their goals by gaining a greater understanding of the business of music. A new episode is released each Wednesday and aims to offer clarity and insight into a range of subjects across the music industry, all through the lens of a music creator for the benefit of other music creators. The series includes soundbites and interviews with guests from all over the world together with commentary and clarity on a range of topics. The podcast is hosted by award winning music industry professional Jonny Amos.
Jonny Amos is a music producer with credits on a range of major and independent labels, a songwriter with chart success in Europe and Asia, a senior lecturer in both music creation and music business at BIMM University UK, director of The SongLab Ltd and the author of The Music Business for Music Creators.
www.jonnyamos.com
The Music Business Buddy
Episode 26: The Art and Instinct of Musical Direction with Martin Magic Johnson
Imagine being at the centre of a musical universe, where every note and beat needs to align perfectly with the artist's vision, yet allow for spontaneity and magic. That's the everyday reality for Martin "Magic" Johnson, an extraordinary musical director whose journey from drummer to esteemed director has equipped him with unparalleled insights into the world of live musical performances. Join us as Magic lifts the curtain on the vital role of a musical director, sharing how he deftly navigates the challenges of working with artists and producers to create seamless live shows, all while ensuring that the groove takes center stage.
Discover the art of musical preparation and organization as Magic reveals his secrets for orchestrating unforgettable live performances. His philosophy of fostering musical flexibility among band members while managing technical intricacies like playback rigs and backup systems serves as a blueprint for aspiring musical directors. Magic's knack for "fixing" musicians by selecting the right talent underscores the complexity of his role, where quick decision-making and a deep understanding of musical dynamics are crucial. We explore how his extensive background as a drummer and engineer informs his executive decisions, often made without direct artist consultation.
The conversation extends beyond music, touching on the logistical hurdles of touring and the unique perspective drummers bring to leadership roles. Magic shares his experiences with travel logistics, technology, and the evolving music industry landscape, offering invaluable advice for those eager to follow in his footsteps. He champions the importance of balancing technical proficiency with emotional instinct, highlighting the unpredictable moments that make live music special. Through Magic's stories and experiences, we get a glimpse into the heart and soul that drives unforgettable performances, reminding us that the true magic of music lies in its ability to connect and inspire.
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The Music Business Buddy. The Music Business Buddy. Hello and welcome everybody. You're listening to the Music Business Buddy with me, johnny Amos, podcasting out of Birmingham in England. I'm the author of the book the Music Business for Music Creators. I'm a music creator myself, with credits on a variety of major and indie labels. As a writer or producer. I'm also a senior lecturer in music business and music creation. Wherever you are, whatever you do, consider yourself welcome to this podcast and to a part of this community. I am here to try and educate and inspire music creators from all over the world in their quest to achieving their goals by gaining a greater understanding of the business of music.
Speaker 1:Ok, so the theme for this week is about the role of a musical director. Now, when I thought about putting together an episode on this subject, I thought I've got to call my friend magic right, martin Johnson, who is an outstanding musician, an example for all musicians in terms of how he functions, how he operates. He is one of the hardest working people you could ever wish to meet in your life. In fact, I can't imagine a harder working musician. He's constant. I mean even just booking him in for this interview for the podcast it was uh, he's so casual about, about his schedule. He'd be like, oh, I'm just going to uh dubai on saturday, but I'll be back, I'll only air for a few hours, I'll come back then. I've got gig in london, but should we do this the next day? You know, it's just he's non-stop. He's like a uh, one of those duracell bunnies, you know, he's just constantly going. He's amazing. He is ruthlessly efficient, he's warm, he's kind, he's knowledgeable, he's very experienced.
Speaker 1:And I asked him about what it's like to be a musical director, because a lot of people know him as a drummer. I mean, that's through his work with the likes of Barbarella's and Larry Adler, the Tarantino's, chris Thompson, guthrie, govan, dennis Stratton loads and loads of people that he continually plays for. But he's also a producer and obviously a musical director. He's a great recording engineer and he's just very, very on top of his own career. He's very, very sustainable. He's got his own studio that he records remotely for people from all over and he travels a lot and as a result of all the musical projects that he's been involved with over the years, whether it be studio or live, he's become such a go-to person as a kind of fixer, as an organizer and as a musical director. So that's the role that I'm going to talk to him about in this interview. I hope you find it useful. Here we go, the mighty magic Martin Johnson in the house. Welcome to the music business buddy. Good to have you here, mate. How are?
Speaker 2:you. Thanks for asking me to be involved, mate. It's an honour honour to be incorporated into your book as well, so I hope this will tie in with what I was saying there.
Speaker 1:Double trouble, mate, in the book and on the podcast. I love it. Now. Now, Magic. We could talk about lots and lots of different things, especially in regards to the role, the numerous roles, that you play in the music business, but let's hone in on the role of being an MD Now, or a musical director Now. Now, it might be that there's people listening to this right now that are not familiar with what that role is, what it entails, um, so let's just talk about your role there for a minute. What do your kind of duties look like in preparation of a show or a tour?
Speaker 2:oh, wow it. Well, it depends on the artist I'm working with. So, if it's some, but let's go for, like my, I suppose, the most heavy duty kind of thing, which is where I'm in charge of now, being a drummer, I'm often in charge of the playback rig. Okay, so, um, it will be getting the stems from the artists, from the studio if I've not been involved in studio recordings or the producer stemming them out, working out what bits are going to be live replaced, which bits are going to be layered upon. Making that kind of, I suppose, executive decision, not necessarily even consulting the artist sometimes because, depending on the artist, they don't really need to know artist, they don't. You know, they, uh, they don't really need to know, they don't really want to know, they just trust, hand it over to me and expect me to do that. So it'll be liaising with production. Um, getting stems, put them into a format on whatever stage player we're using. Um, that's going to work. Often it will involve me behind the scenes really remixing stuff, totally remixing stuff in the live environment Interesting, okay.
Speaker 2:And then tweaking things, doing the usual housekeeping things of making the files really tight, making sure the clicks are all synced, making sure, obviously, predominantly, you've got the click, but often with in-ears these days a lot of the other band will want a bit of click in there as well, maybe not too much. Funny enough, as a drummer I always try and err on the side of telling the rest of the band look, don't have the click unless you really need it, unless there's dead air and where I'm not playing because I want them to follow my groove, because I might push and pull the groove a little bit in the click and I want them to follow me, not to follow the click. So that's one thing, um, but then, so it's getting all that ready and then, once I'm happy with it, sort of playing through with it a little bit, and then, um, the other important thing is back up, back up, back up and back up. So I'll have it on the main stage player, I'll have a backup stage player. I'll have it on my laptop stage player. I'll have a backup stage player. I'll have it on my laptop.
Speaker 2:If generally we try not to use laptops live on stage, even though they are really solid these days with like solid state drives and stuff, I still don't trust them. Computers go wrong, as we could find out on this call. At the minute, my video camera's freezing um and um, so I'll have it. It's, it's, it's a lot of it is. I call it less, less musical direction and more making things ship shape and watertight and contingency plans for everything.
Speaker 1:Wow very organized okay so sorry.
Speaker 2:And then just so I mean the question I get is like you know md, you know the fancy word of md, I know I kind of fell into that. Really it's not something I would say I I now sometimes add it to my, my list of jobs just because I've kind of fallen into it, but I've never set out to do it and quite often also it will be fixing the musicians.
Speaker 1:So, for the benefit of people that don't know, fixing doesn't mean, you know you kind of putting I don't know plasters or bandages on the musicians. Well, it pretty much can be sometimes.
Speaker 2:But yes, musically it definitely can be that. But yeah, so traditional term of effects. So now in the sessions and in the film scoring world will be someone who is hired to compile the correct musicians for the session, those who are suitable. So it will be a database of musicians. You go, I know they'll now that style of music or they've got the right sound or the right headspace, um, so, yeah, so I will generally be fixing the musicians or recommending the musicians. Um, most of the time the artists don't even question it because that's why they've got me involved. Um, they know I'm not going to get anyone that's going to make them look bad and, more importantly, make me look bad and in an egotistic way. But you know, you still want to do a good job. So the traditional term of like being an md, where you're being well conductor and and really telling people what to play, no, it's not that at all. You, you're getting people on your team who you trust, who you know intrinsically are probably going to make the right decisions 95 percent of the time and you hand it over to them.
Speaker 2:Regarding my role with musical side as an md, aside from the compilation of the actual tracks and making sure everything's ship shape. Um, it's just the ability to make quick decisions and make assertive decisions when required. Um, it's, yeah, it's just, it's just being being quick and not, not, not, not quick to the expense of quality, but quick being, let's not, let's not procrastinate, let's try stuff out. Or if there's a something that's 50 50, like we could go this way on this particular phrase or another way, um, I'll just my, I'll use my, my gut instinct to go that's, that's the one that feels right and have the casting decision, I suppose okay, interesting.
Speaker 1:So so actually there's a lot of um. Would it be fair to say, then, that you kind of start a kind of sense of live pre-production with parts of post-production from a studio session?
Speaker 2:Yes, so definitely it's. I would say I'm more in the MD kind of situation. I suppose I would say I'm more in the role of a compiler of the parts. See, I'll never call myself a producer or even a mix engineer. Well, I was.
Speaker 2:No, no, no, when I compare it to people whose workflow is really quick and they really know what they're doing. You know I f heard you no, no, no, when I compare it to people whose workflow is really quick and they really know what they're doing, you know I fanny around, I don't really know what I'm doing. I'm just it's trial by fire and trial by you know, by mistakes, and trying to find the right way. That's not true listeners?
Speaker 1:That's not true at all.
Speaker 2:Carry on mate I think you've been very, uh, very charitable, um, but I, I think you know, part of the role of being an md for me really is is having all the nuts and bolts on the on. The good ship that you're sailing on is all watertight and having that decision, those quick decisions to steer a course should a little storm come up.
Speaker 1:That's my analogy for the day that's, that's, that's a great way of putting it. Okay, so let's kind of flash, flash forward to the day of a show. Uh, what does your role look like on that day? Is it just a continuation of that kind of fire prevention sort of attitude, or is it something more than that?
Speaker 2:it's okay. So, leading, probably let's talk even like a couple of weeks before the show. Leading up it would been been liaising with tour managers, management, um, I'll, sometimes I'll also get involved and obviously with front of house crew and monitor crew. So whoever's I've got, either sometimes I'll book the front of house engineers I've got. So whoever's I've got, either sometimes I'll book the front of house engineers. I've got my kind of a team of people that would go to if they're not out on the road. Um, so I'd be liaising with them ahead of the time, liaising with stage plot. If it's a like a festival thing, they need to know stage parts, not not your own crew. Um, it will be looking through the channel list on the desks and what they've got and what we're sending out, just checking everything's there.
Speaker 2:So it's almost a little it's not tour management, but it's difficult because the role sometimes is it the md thing is you're the point of contact for the artist, you're the point of contact musically for them. But nowadays you know it can't just be that. I've got to talk all the tech stuff as well. I'm talking. You know stage plot, even where power sockets are. You know all that kind of thing, making sure the stage plan is correct. So there's all that.
Speaker 2:Quite often I'll be the one that communicates with the band as well, so I'll get the details from the management or the artist usually from the management or if there's a tm on it, um, the tm will often negotiate with everybody or send all the details out for the show and sound checks and all that kind of thing. But often I will be doing it, um, so then we roll forward towards the day. Obviously I've got being a drummer. I've got shed loads of kit to set up and make sure the logistics of that there, but then I've also got the playback rig and if you've got any triggers and samples and pads and electronics, we've got all that to contend with.
Speaker 2:So it's a big old setup for me, um, and in between that, if I haven't got a tech, I'm then also trying to negotiate on the site with the crew, with the front of house and monitors, and also sometimes, because I'm there usually earlier than the artist and often the tour manager will be driving the artist I'm there on site earlier. So quite often I'm on the first point of call with catering and hospitality as well. So you kind of like, just have, I'm sort of wearing a zillion hats, not just the MD hat, I mean. In a way, by the time it gets to show day I'm not really MDing anymore, I'm just making sure everything's in place I should have done. I mean, if I haven't done the prep before that day, then I'm just going to be swamped.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, okay.
Speaker 2:so if you've done your prep correctly, then there's kind of less to do on the day, like a lot of things, I suppose, yeah, and then on the day it's just, it's mainly logistics of being people being in the right place and things being in the right place at the right time okay, okay, and and what about the actual?
Speaker 1:I mean, let's think about the actual musicians that you, that you work with, um, because you're kind of, as you alluded to earlier, you're also responsible sometimes for fixing, ie, bringing in the right, you know, guitar player or vocalist, horn player, whoever um, how much flexibility is there for those musicians on their parts, um, and, and how do you kind of communicate creative ideas with them?
Speaker 2:yeah, good, question creative ideas with them. Yeah, good question. Most of us who are seasoned old pros um, I've been doing it for bloody years with bags under the eyes um, I suppose I'm going to trust the people behind I know who have a similar outlook to me, not musically necessarily, but in musical ethos as in. They can identify very quickly what are the killer parts in the tune that need to be there night after night. What are the underlying motifs or what the audience is expecting to hear? It might even just be a little guitar lick, it might be a little line which isn't obviously part of the melody, or the hook line, but it is still there as something for someone's ear will latch onto. So it's having those musicians who.
Speaker 2:So, if I just roll this back, as we say when we're lecturing, it's like it's taken as read. If you're going to be a pro, it's taken as read. You've got to be shit hot at your instrument, end of story. That's not even in question. That doesn't even come into the table, because you wouldn't even be on my phone list if you weren't that. So then after that, the next thing is are you going to play what's right for the song and lose your ego? Okay, um, now we've all got an ego, because obviously we'll get out of bed, we wouldn't try and be very good. So there's a there's a healthy ego and there's an unhealthy ego. And those of us who are really driven have a healthy ego where we're just trying to do the best we can all the time. But and we do have an opinion we do have an identity, but we're not fighting to relinquish that for the good of the common good.
Speaker 2:The musician's old book will be obviously brilliant at what they do on their instrument, but they'll also have that balance of when can I bring a bit of me into it and when should I be playing the part. So, literally probably 80% to 85% in pre-production and rehearsals, all those bits will be there and then it will be just a little bit. Someone will go oh, what do you think of my tone on this, or do you think I should do this? Sometimes, actually quite often, the musicians I get are so kind of, you know, giving to the music, that I'm the one that's actually gearing them up and going. I want you to set yourself on fire there. I want you to take that make, make it your own, have your moment.
Speaker 1:This is a live environment. We're transferring that energy from a studio recording to live and there needs to be some kind of energy differences, interesting, okay. So therefore, let's say, for example, there's a lead guitar player that says, right, okay, shall I, shall, I do that solo after the second chorus, and and you're kind of thinking about the stems and the setup for the track, and then you go well, you know, I can pipe in a rhythm guitar there from the studio. Totally, you know, is that the kind of thing that you might kind of liaise upon?
Speaker 2:in fact, I'll be liaising on, yeah, yeah, before, before we even get into the studio for pre-production, when I'm compiling the track. So first thing I'll do is, if I've got a new track from an artist, there's like loads of new stuff coming out for next year for the for the blue edge girls, and it's like when I get the stems for that, the first thing I'll do is hear that, hear the overall mix as it's meant to be done by the producer and the mix engineer, and I'll have the stem separately and then literally on within two listens max. I'll probably go well, that's going to work. That works for the studio but doesn't work for live. It's not going to happen because it's a totally different environment. Yeah, yeah, you have to present it a different way.
Speaker 1:The color for one of a better description, the colors have to be more vibrant, okay so then see, that's where your, that's where your taste comes into it, right, is there like your? That's where the options come into it.
Speaker 2:Where is australia? My gut instinct I listen to it and go, oh, that, that, that could be, or we could extend that section, or we could open that up, or you know, or whatever it might be, or or that point. Yeah, I'll have that discussion with the guitarist and go right, here's the parts, here's some of the stems. I'm thinking this, this and this. We'll probably have a zoom call to be these days, probably have a zoom call, and we'll play it down down the wire and just thrash it out. And 90 percent of time, 95 percent of time. It's pretty pretty much what I thought. The guitarist will probably go yeah, cool, but then I'll ask their advice on would you rather play the rhythm part or that little, that little kind of motif, or would you, you know, or vice versa. And it will be just a not a negotiation, it will be a discussion on it.
Speaker 1:And then you can just substitute or take out that part from the track, or they can double with it, maybe if you leave it in there.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely, it depends. So sometimes on key parts, sometimes there will be doubling or there'll be a shadow part underneath and that's largely to do with what if situation. What if the guitarist, guitarist lead goes down at that point, or a patch cable goes down and there's that really important motif suddenly isn't there. So quite often, you know, there's certain lines where it will be a definite, um, known part of the song and I might just have it there as a shadow. So yeah, when we're doing it live, the guitarist is not miming, they're playing it, but it almost be like a shadowed kind of not quite as loud as double tracked, but that kind of vibe where it's there so that if something did go down, there would be still that element in there yeah, the little insurance policy as well, so that things don't dip, okay, and also then live as well.
Speaker 2:We've got that. We've got that. We've got that. That thing of where the actual front of house engineer can can give a wide spread on the guitar, for example, we can do a slight different eq setting, and it's just going to be. It's going to fatten it up or it's going to give it a different character. So it's there, it's. It's there for a real reason. Not just backup is there, but it's also there as a backup in case shit hits the fan and that goes down.
Speaker 1:Right, okay, now that makes a lot of sense. I was talking to Bob Knight, you know, well-respected fixer for bands.
Speaker 2:Well, great drummer, first of all you know, oh yeah. And he's fallen into the fixing same as I've fallen into, like the mdn kind of fixing yeah, well, it's his own fault for being so organized much like you, really, isn't it?
Speaker 1:and um, and he was talking about, uh, how much um, midi is now used rather than just kind of playing to track and playing to click on that track and, you know, playing back everything with audio. Um, he was talking about how much MIDI events are kind of incorporated into a live show, you know, to kind of take away the need for guitar players to hit their booster pedals in choruses.
Speaker 2:Oh, yeah, yeah, so like using, yeah, yeah, using patch changes and stuff like that.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, are you kind of seeing an increase in that kind of thing?
Speaker 2:It's bizarre, it's still relatively new to some players and and handing over that trust, but it's certainly something that's becoming a little bit more escalated in the scene. Okay, yeah, so so now I think that that that happens a lot more when you've got laptops and stuff that are really super solid. I still don't trust them. Okay, you know, um, you can do midi events. So some of the stage players have got like the old cymatic and now the bb, which, which you use in life, which can also. I've also got the synchronized video with for the backdrops.
Speaker 2:Okay, um, you can send media events out on that and and and it is possible for them to connect that to something like ableton, for example, to trigger then your patch changes. So, yeah, definitely, I mean, I use a few patch changes with my SPD when I'm changing things. It will just give a little code and it will change my sounds automatically. For me it's definitely something that's on the increase. I think at this moment I won't particularly trust it unless you've got a dedicated playback engineer at the side of the stage.
Speaker 1:Is that?
Speaker 2:something that's an increasing thing that's happening where you'd have a dedicated playback engineer and it might be one of the techs who's very well up on and during the show they'll be monitoring what's going on with the playback rig and have a redundant rig there just in case.
Speaker 1:That makes sense.
Speaker 2:That's an independent job. Right there, isn't it? It's pretty much an independent job. Or they might be multitasking, doing certain things during set-up and then during the show, they've got this extra job which is just watching the playback engine. Okay, I'm still at a stage where, because I've done playback stuff since I was 18, I Okay, I'm still at a stage where, because I've done playback stuff since I was 18, I've gone through so many different ways of doing playback and I still don't trust anything other than the old Cymatic audios which were rock solid, but they don't make any money.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, you rave about those, don't you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and then there's a newcomer called the BB, which is an incredible piece of kit. I've taken it out on about 20 shows so far, synced with video, and it's been rock solid. The only thing it's not been rock solid is me going where's the menu, because the menu is slightly different and setting up the shows. But oh, a b beat, okay b beat, and, and they are literally. You know the size of a. I've done a size of a small mixer, at the best like a four or five channel mixer, and it runs at the minute, just depends on the act. I'm running six to eight separate stems plus synchronized HUMY video as well, wow, which we just hit play and it goes.
Speaker 1:Okay, that's very interesting Okay.
Speaker 2:So, to answer your question, I would love to investigate more, like using Ableton for all my patch changes and stuff. But that just requires me to either run the show from Ableton directly or would mean I do MIDI commands out of the BB to trigger Ableton and then a minute a lot of my stuff is kind of flying in and flying out. So I have to also have it as a mobile rig that I can fit in hand baggage. Okay, yeah, yeah. So there's a little bit of limitation there, and not only the cost of freight and stuff around these days, but also just reliability of airlines is just a nightmare okay literally these days.
Speaker 2:I used I used to fly with cymbals, but obviously backline would be brought in for me. Guitarists used to fly with the guitars. Now, now a lot of time, we're requesting those on the backline rig when we arrive at the country. So people are playing, not their own instruments, only because if you're doing a fly and fly out half the time, the luggage is going missing. At the minute it's just bonkers okay.
Speaker 1:So you have to kind of oh wow, god, there's so many eventualities there's a contingency plan.
Speaker 2:You have to think ahead, you know, for the travel, travel logistics, god there's so many things to think about there.
Speaker 1:What about that, the sort of liaising side of things? Are you I mean, you've alluded to this a little bit, but are you you know, who are you dealing with the most when it comes to being a musical director? Are you liaising mainly with tour managers, or but you're talking to booking agents? You're talking mainly to the band, the band's management. Does it vary?
Speaker 2:Quite often in the initial role as an MD, it will be with the artist direct.
Speaker 1:To kind of understand their vision.
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, there's that, yeah, and literally. Well, it's because of the way I am. But people are happy to talk to me. They know I'm not going to pester them. So I've got some very nice chunky phone numbers in my phone book that I then would never give away to anybody. But those artists will quite happily talk to me directly and phone me and text me or whatever, or WhatsApp me and would rather deal with me directly.
Speaker 2:Then the management might come in just to oversee generally the logistics of things for the show day and then they'll be like you know, you, we know what it's like a myriad of people cc'd in on on emails. So the tour manager management at that point maybe not the artist, okay, um, so my, it depends what hat I've got on on that day. So if it's a stem creation, getting the mix, so if I'm getting the mix, so the artist will say, okay, I've got some new songs, we want to take this out the road, or someone will say that. So my first thing will be okay, right, I need to liaise with whoever was done the mix or the production on this. Liaise with them, get what I want from them. So tell them what I want.
Speaker 2:Stem wise, um, not just not just in resolution, but also in actually what parts, when I've heard it and go right, can I have that bit separate? I need all that bit separate, all these um, then I'll be sitting down and compiling and doing that that pre-production thing of getting what I think is good for a stage track and having those discussions with what I'm going to replace with the other instruments, um, and then when it gets closer to show day, it'll be a little bit of dotting the i's and crossing the t's with the artist just to stay in the loop. But then after that it'll be pretty much either the tm or the management that I'm dealing with okay, wow interesting, okay I mean I don't.
Speaker 2:I don't do a booking agent, so I don't do all the bookers no, that makes sense. That's not that's. I'm not interested in them in the nicest possible way no, that makes that makes sense.
Speaker 1:Um, I kind of figured that was the case. I just wanted to ask you, from the benefit of those that are wanting to head into this live sector world and not knowing kind of you know who they would be dealing with can you give to emerging live music professionals you know that possibly have an interest either being a live musician in a kind of you know national or international live scene setup, or maybe even those that then want to take it a step further into being a musical director. You know they need a lot of skills. They'll hopefully listen to this episode, listen to you and learn a lot. But what advice can you give to that kind of person right now in the music industry?
Speaker 2:right. Let me step back then, because one thing we haven't broached upon this might allude into that question is, as I said, I fell into doing the md in, but you will find like bob, like you Bob, you'll find a lot of. It's a very bizarre thing. A lot of drummers become good mix engineers, good front of house engineers or good MDs, and I think there's a reason for that. It's because of the instrument we play and I think, psychologically we are. We're like the goalkeeper in a football team. We've seen the whole pitch in front of us. Of course we've got an ego. We're bloody the goalkeeper in a football team. We've seen the whole pitch in front of us. Of course we've got an ego. We're bloody drummers. But we know that essentially we're the engine room behind everything. So although we secretly know we're the most important people on the stage, we don't let anybody else know that, unless they piss us off, in which case they soon know. But I suppose my analogy with that is, I think I think drummers tend to become MDs quite often, and that and they fall into that Not because my music theory isn't as good as somebody sitting down at a piano eight hours a day, right, but I can make. I know what sounds right, yeah, and sometimes that goes against music theory. Sometimes you do things where you go well and you know, sometimes I've had worked with musicians where their theory will get in the way and they go well. That shouldn't work, I mean. But does it fucking sound right? Right, oh, yeah, okay, there you are. That's your ears. Your ears and your gut feeling. The king, yeah, right, you know. But I think as a drummer, you kind of fall into that and so I fell into it. I think, and because you, hopefully, are relatively organised, you can obviously play. But there's that other thing of you as a drummer you're seeing the band from behind most of the time when you're on stage. You're hearing the overall soundscape as it's happening and you can watch audience reactions really well. So I think, intrinsically, drummers you know, if they're tuned to it, just just have this thing. I'm not saying exclusively drummers, but I think it's something that's definitely a characteristic um.
Speaker 2:So to any MDs, you know, or people want to get into it, don't, first of all, you've got to have. It's not all about you having the best music theory and best music knowledge. You have to have great music knowledge as in be a fan of music and have a massive and diverse listening and that comes from every musician should listen more. We should all listen more to music for pleasure. But I suppose the thing is you don't have to have the greatest music theory, but you have to have a good arrangement head, a good production head.
Speaker 2:It doesn't mean necessarily you've got to be a brilliant mix engineer, but you've got to go oh, that bit would sound good there, or that bit needs to come down in level, or that needs a different tone. But that's from not being involved in the individual parts but seeing the individual parts as a whole. Yeah, yeah, okay, um, and I think if you want to become a great md, it obviously really helps if you're really shit hot, and that's why great like west end mds are, like tend to be pianist, keyboard players. Um, you've got to have a good degree of music theory. But it's not the be-all and end-all. The most important thing is is big ears, big big heart for the music, sometimes going on gut instinct, but being able to make quick decisions, um, in a nice way, but an affirmative way, I don't know.
Speaker 2:He said yeah, that's one to different, one to yeah, and then the other thing is just really be super prepped yeah, yeah, yeah, um, that's definitely very important.
Speaker 1:I'm just thinking, I mean something interesting there, right? Two things that you just said there that have really captured my imagination, right? Number one, your ability to watch an audience. You're in the centre of the stage very often, but you are often towards the back of the stage. It puts you in a perfect position to be able to gauge reaction. Yeah, never really thought about that before.
Speaker 1:And secondly, you mentioned about kind of musical directors. If you were to compare what you do to, let's say, somebody in the West End Theatre, for example, yeah, okay, there would be, you know, classically trained pianists and stuff like that. But but let's think about this for a minute, right, your role has become a hybrid role, uh, between technology and musical arrangement, amongst other skills such as you know, your ability to you know, manage people and being the best out of them and that kind of thing. I wouldn't mind betting. Actually, a lot of West End directors, as superb as they are, might struggle in your kind of role if they're not as technologically advanced or as informed as you are. Would that not be correct?
Speaker 2:I think possibly in the old days, but the West End now is full of tech, so I think most people are on it.
Speaker 1:to be fair, I think that yeah yeah, um, well, that set me straight.
Speaker 2:That's fine then no, no no only because there is so much now track not tracks as much much, but there's still a lot, of, a lot of tech on there. But I think, I think definitely, just because you're an md in one environment doesn't mean you can be an md in another environment and the other. The other important thing is, like you people was, the general public will be incredibly shocked, maybe surprised, at how these days there is little rehearsal time and prep with the artist the days of having two weeks, three weeks at no miss studios and pre and or wherever, and doing your pre-production and going in like a day job and really fine-tuning the show.
Speaker 2:I've gone a lot of times now. We're showing up, we maybe have a dusting the cobwebs off day with the artist or, for example, leading up to dates, if there's new material, there might be just one day of rehearsal really, and and that will be literally, that might literally be in the morning I'm there with the band and then by the afternoon the artist is coming and if I can go in, if I've got my band in a position where the artist comes in and literally runs through each song once or twice and goes bloody hell, it's killer, I've done my job Then they're happy Okay, they've saved budget, they know we can do it that quickly. But the other thing then is, quite often, sometimes the artist might have the studio version in the head and not this slightly rearranged live version, even though even though I'll record all the rehearsals and send it out to them. So my, my role, job as an md is this this came up, this came to my head actually recently. We did a big festival in the summer and I literally showed up and went.
Speaker 2:I haven't even listened to my own drum parts yet. Really, because I'm taking care of everybody else first. Right, I knew what they were, don't get me wrong, I've played them before and I had played them. But I'm like I'm bizarrely, this doesn't sound like a good thing. I'm less prepared on my own parts in some of those environments than I would be if I was just a freelance player.
Speaker 2:Right, okay, because I'm taking care of everyone else's business first of all. And then, when I'm on stage, if the artist has got that studio arrangement in the head and I know they're a little bit shaky I'm looking out for them. Eyes up is is is out and eyes up, um, looking out for them. And they might just look at me from the side side of you know slight little glance during the dance routine and I'm like I'm either shaking my head or I'm just nodding at them to go yes, we're going to the next section or no, we're not going to the next section. So I'm kind of like those visual cues are really important and I think sometimes some of the reason I get booked it's yeah, I got the prep and I can play and blah, blah, blah, but I've.
Speaker 2:I'm just like a little safety net on stage for the artist right, I know they can look around at me and I'm going to catch their glance and go no, you're going to screw that up, or the first thing they'll do quite often, like with rich girls. Sometimes, if they muck a, muck, a passage up, they'll just walk over to the row as he went. I fucked that up, didn't? I went yeah, and I'll nod my head while we're, while we're playing, and carry on. But they're looking out and they're looking up, for you know, they know that I'm going to clock it and they know that I'm going to clock every mistake, but I'm there to shepherd them through it. I'm a shepherd, I'm, you know they're my sheep and I'm making sure they get into the pen correctly at the end of the day, and I think that's.
Speaker 2:That's a really important part of it, because it's it's that's just a whole awareness on stage thing. That's yeah, and if the artist then goes every show's killer and they go. They might even it might even be a subconscious thing, but they don't know really why it's killer, but it might be. They suddenly realize, oh, it's because he's always looking out.
Speaker 1:He's looking out for our back all the time yeah, that's, that's, that's very important, that that's that reminds me. I was watching a, a documentary recently, um, about bruce brings in the east street band and like their sort of long time relationship and the fact that they've been playing together for, like you know, like 50 years for some of them, you know, and um, and the drummer, um, max weinberg yeah, mighty max weinberg. Yeah, um, I knew you'd know that, you know everything, man, um, and he was saying that he's been playing with bruce so long now that, like you know the way springsteen does that thing, before a song, one, two, three, but you know they're going, and he'll say that even though there's a lot of catalog and there's a lot of songs that sit roughly around the same tempo range, he can literally tell, yeah, what song they are going to do. By the way that bruce counts yes, absolutely 100.
Speaker 2:It blew my mind man.
Speaker 1:I was like, how does he do? But that's what happens when you happens when you're playing with so many different people, you're switching genres and you're like you must be so in tune on such a level with so many people. Oh, I don't know.
Speaker 2:You must be. I haven't thought about that. It's all the same stuff, just different buckets. You're so modest. I mean the skill set's the same. I mean, no, the skill set's not the same. The, the principles are the same. You're either. You're going to be as a musician. What's your first thing other than the ability to play your instrument? What's the first thing you should have down listening?
Speaker 1:yeah, listening, yeah, I'm glad you said that.
Speaker 2:Reacting and not overthinking. Right, okay, yeah, right. So I I trust a lot of my musical decisions are made on on, not even on the, certainly not on the head. They're certainly made sometimes in the heart, but mainly from gut instinct okay and you trust that gut instinct.
Speaker 2:That's the key thing 99 of the time, it's right the amount when I've been on like studio sessions and then I've played the part and then the producer goes oh right, can we do another one of that? Yeah right, can we just try this? I'm hearing this and I'm sitting there shaking my head going I wouldn't play this. I've just gone, and usually three hours later you come back and they go oh actually, we know we referred the original couple of takes. Well, yeah, no shit, sherlock, it's because you know you brought me in to bring something to the table and you know I kind of vaguely know what I'm doing, what's might be the best for the music.
Speaker 2:So it's like I trust me gut instinct a lot, yeah but, that can only come from like back catalogue of like as a kid listening to shed loads of music.
Speaker 1:Yeah and yeah, and just being being feeling comfortable with being uncomfortable at times, I guess right from having that encyclopedia of music in your mind yeah, yeah and it's yeah, it's um, yeah, and I think a lot of people do.
Speaker 2:I think that sometimes in a way where where someone who is you know got a really incredible music theory background, sometimes that can overtake the actual um, just does it sound right, vibe? Yeah yeah, yeah, same as songwriting. Start to think about it too much. Does it feel good? Yeah, is it wrong? Yeah, but does it feel good?
Speaker 1:yeah, therefore it's right just like the inception of song creation. Man, yeah, I find that so often it's like this shouldn't work, yeah, but but it does there, doesn't? And?
Speaker 2:isn't it lovely when you find something. You go, this really shouldn't work, but it does. And you then you found something that's. That's that that most people would discard straight away, but you've, you're the one that's holding onto it, yeah. You know yeah and and and you know talking about studio stuff. For me, and I suppose in a way it's like the live environment as well what is a perfect performance? There's no such thing. It's often the perfect performance.
Speaker 1:Technically, it's just soulless and the most and the most important thing, that what's the?
Speaker 2:most important thing, that what's the most important, the records that I still cherish and I still go back to are not just the ones that as a kid, they meant something to me. Obviously, that's quite a big thing, but the other thing is, all the records that I love that I will listen to for days on end, even now, are the ones where it feels like it feels like it could fall off the edge at moments at any point, and that creates excitement. Okay that's?
Speaker 1:oh, that's interesting. Do you know? Do you know what magic? Many years ago, my brother and I went to watch um brian wilson do um, do smile live for the first time ever, um, at the royal london festival. A very, very special moment and um, you know, just seeing him back on the stage was just unbelievable, you know seeing, and then it was really, really special. It'll stay with us forever. It was amazing. However, a few months later, we went to go and see him again up in Liverpool and they had got, like his whole band. They were, you know, elite, you know la session musicians, you know, you probably know half of them, mate, but um, they, they had got. This is gonna sound strange, but they got too good yeah you know it was.
Speaker 1:It just felt, it started to feel a little bit, and I hate to use this word, but cabaret yeah, a little bit formulaic and kind of like mapped out yeah, they'd just been doing it so well night after night after night that it just itic and kind of like mapped out. Yeah, they'd just been doing it so well night after night after night that it just it had almost kind of it had ascended in musicality.
Speaker 2:But descended in kind of feel and fear. Yeah, there's a really good album to reference that kind of thing for. For me it always sticks in my head from the moment I bought it. There's a double album out by the police, live album, and the first cd is then live back in 70 something, and then the second cd is them on the synchronicity tour, and the one I prefer the most is the early stuff, when it's really punky, really edgy and about to fall apart at any moment. Oh, really, technically they're all over the fucking place, absolutely, you know there's, there's, it's well, it just shouldn't work. But the energy and the vibe is just incredible.
Speaker 2:It's like you know, you put it, put it on in your car and you'll be like going 120 mile an hour before you realize, because he's just listening to it and going. Oh, my god, and it's those kind of I'm not saying it's it's. You have to have those moments, I think. Or if you don't have those moments, even it's perfect, like pop music and it's all, it's all bang on. You've still got to have those little moments where the player you let a player, like I said, you let the player unleash a little bit go. No, I want you to take a. I want you to actually just set the world on fire at that point, because no one's expecting it, and then yes, yes, exactly, and that's um, oh, that's an interesting subject.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, okay, um, magic, we better wrap up. I know how ruddy, bloody, busy you are and I you know, and for the benefit of the listeners, we are recording this very early in the morning because of it's it's you morning, because of how in demand you are, mates, and I appreciate you doing this, because I think there'll be listeners today that have got a lot from listening to you, and I thank you for that and for your contribution here today to the music business buddy, martin Magic Johnson, you the man. Thank you, buddy. Thank you very much, johnny, but you're the man. Business buddy, martin Magic Johnson, you the man.
Speaker 2:Thank you, buddy. Thank you very much, johnny, but you're the man back man.
Speaker 1:Oh, no, no, no, no. He's the man. He's brilliant, hardest working musician I have ever known in my life. He's amazing. I've toured with him, I've studied with him. He's fantastic. I hope you enjoyed that interview, everybody. Until next time, may the force be with you.
