The Music Business Buddy
A podcast that aims to educate and inspire music creators in their quest to achieving their goals by gaining a greater understanding of the business of music. A new episode is released each Wednesday and aims to offer clarity and insight into a range of subjects across the music industry, all through the lens of a music creator for the benefit of other music creators. The series includes soundbites and interviews with guests from all over the world together with commentary and clarity on a range of topics. The podcast is hosted by award winning music industry professional Jonny Amos.
Jonny Amos is a music producer with credits on a range of major and independent labels, a songwriter with chart success in Europe and Asia, a senior lecturer in both music creation and music business at BIMM University UK, director of The SongLab Ltd and the author of The Music Business for Music Creators.
www.jonnyamos.com
The Music Business Buddy
Episode 30: James Auwarter's Journey To Becoming a Grammy Winner
In this episode, I interview Grammy-winning mix engineer James Auwarter, who shares his journey from aspiring musician to industry expert. Emphasising the importance of communication, collaboration, and technical skills, James offers practical advice for emerging artists and producers looking to elevate their work.
• James Auwarter's career path from trumpet to Grammy-winning engineer
• The critical role of effective communication with clients
• Understanding the significance of rough mixes and reference tracks
• Differences in working with independent artists versus major labels
• The evolution and importance of technology in music production
• Advice for emerging producers, songwriters, and artists on building a strong team
• The balance between high-quality gear and budget-conscious choices
• Insight on trial and error in the creative process and finding success in the industry
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www.jonnyamos.com
https://themusicbusinessbuddy.buzzsprout.com
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https://www.instagram.com/themusicbusinessbuddypodcast/
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Email
jonnyamos@me.com
The Music Business Body. The Music Business Body. Hello everybody and a very warm welcome to you. You're listening to the Music Business Body with me, johnny Amos, podcasting out of Birmingham in England. I'm the author of the book the Music Business for Music Creators, available in hardback, paperback, ebook format. I'm a music creator with credits on a variety of major and indie labels. As a writer-producer, I'm also a senior lecturer in both music business and music creation. Wherever you are, whatever you do, consider yourself welcome to this podcast and to a part of the community. I'm here to educate and inspire music creators from all over the world in their quest to achieve in their goals by gaining a greater understanding of the business of music.
Speaker 1:Ok, so in today's episode I am talking to the brilliant Grammy Award winning mix engineer and mastering engineer, james Orwater. Now James is somebody that I met at a music event last year in London. We were both speaking on the event and I just really hit it off with him. He's such a nice guy, he's funny, he's brilliant to be around, he's brilliant with people, he's superb in his line of work and you know, and I thought, well, maybe he'd make a great guest for the podcast. So I asked him. He was into the idea, and so this is how this came about. He's brilliant. He has got a total of get this 32 Grammy nominations. Yes, you heard that right. Thirty two. He's not even that old, I mean. That's how good he is, you know. So he's worked with the likes of Rihanna, kanye West, yo-yo, ma, pj Morton, adam Levine the list goes on and on and on.
Speaker 1:He's amazing. He's really kind of developed a very particular thing that he does, which is receiving files and mixing or mastering them or both. He's also a multi-genre guy, and not many people in that field at that elite level are. They usually specialize in one style another, but james isn't like that. He turns his hand to a whole range of styles r&b, right over the country and everywhere in between. He's very, very versatile and he has a very set way of working which applies itself to pretty much any style. So I wanted to talk to him about, kind of you know, what got him from, you know young guy playing in bands all the way up to being a Grammy Award winning engineer, you know. So I wanted to understand his story and ask him a few questions, and so here's how that went, james. Welcome to the music business. Buddy, it's good to have you here.
Speaker 2:How are you, mate? I am really well. Thanks for having me, Johnny. Hey, it's good to have you here.
Speaker 1:So let's get rolling with the first question, james. So if we start with the now before, we kind of slightly go back in time in your career, so you've made it to the top of the tree as a mix engineer. I not only have you won a prestigious Grammy Award, but in total you've been credited with 32 Grammy nominations. Dude, first of all, my hat's off to you. Right, that's absolutely amazing. It really is. Right Now, how did you go about kind of finding that niche? Because the reality is there's a lot of strings to your bow, right, you're not just a mix guy or just a mastering guy. So how did you go about kind of finding that lane?
Speaker 3:yeah, uh, good question well, I, I try to work in as many genres as possible. I've had, I guess, maybe the bulk of the success in hip hop and gospel, but you know I've worked with some some pretty big names in classical, some pretty big names and rock and reggae everything. And I think that can sometimes be an attribute or detriment, depending on the person. You know you spread yourself too thin. But I think if you take it seriously enough and you try, you know you try your damnedest to give whatever you're approaching a sense of authenticity and then I think that that goes goes a long way both with the client and your average listener.
Speaker 3:So for me it's a necessity to work in slightly different roles, slightly different genres from day to day. It must have something to do with my ADD, you know. I think maybe I need to have something kind of pushing me in different directions all the time. But yeah, absolutely Like you said, I mix, I master, I record, I do Dolby Atmos, I occasionally produce, but primarily, uh, you know, mixing and mastering is what keeps me the busiest these days interesting and and when you do you do like all your own kind of mix prep, or do you have somebody do that for you, or because I know it varies quite a bit- yeah yeah, these days I generally do I mean probably 95 percent of that kind of mix prep.
Speaker 3:Uh, I mean I came up in the industry 20 years ago on the traditional route as an intern and assistant and general assistant and kind of work my way up Um.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, at some point I was the one who would prep the mixes Um. So I realized that there is a uh, there is that side of things and it does have a lot of upside to it. But nowadays even the biggest of mixers are uh, most of them not all of them of course, but a lot of them are very much uh prepping it themselves. It's just uh. It's a lot easier than it used to be, uh, being completely in the box, as opposed to back in the day with an analog console and all the analog outboard gear and you know 100 patch cables that needed to be patched um, etc. But but now you know it being digital and knowing how I want my session to to be routed um, it generally makes sense for me to do all that prep work.
Speaker 3:Um, if it's, if it's a scenario where there needs to be a lot of editing or comping or tuning, um, that's not a mix thing. Um, that's a pet peeve of a lot of mix engineers. Unfortunately, it kind of gets uh kind of blended into the mix process sometimes. So if and when that happens, and if and when the financial business agreement aspect of that gets sorted, then sometimes that will be something I outsource, just so I'm not overly bogged down with that ahead of time. Be hands-off, pass it off to one of my uh one of my guys in chicago at my studio who I'll usually pass those kind of things off to. I can trust them, they can send it back in a timely fashion and it keeps my head in a clearer headspace. For once, it actually, uh, comes time to to be creative and dive into the mix process.
Speaker 1:At that point, yeah, I've often wondered about that, because there's often a an assumption there right, right, let's do this, let's do that, let's tune it up, let's you know. It's like well, that's not really part of the process, is it? Yeah, exactly, um, interesting, um, james, sorry I hadn't planned to ask you this, but I'm just thinking about this now. Do you know? Um, one of the things that can often be a struggle for many people as a recipient, as a mix engineer or as as somebody sending stems off to somebody to mix, is is the level of expectation of a mix engineer, right? So sometimes do you find like a lot of variation between people's expectations. Like, do do you get some people that just go right, here's everything pretty much as it, as we want it, you just need to do some like surgical eq and stuff. Or do you get people that go there's what we've done, turn that into something special, like, because those are two different things, right?
Speaker 3:they are very different things. Yeah, um, I, I very much have generally been a part of the uh, you know, send me the full, raw, multi, multi tracks. Uh, yes, give me as good. Good over rough mix, stereo balance is you got?
Speaker 3:I'm a very firm believer in the first and most important reference track is the rough mix. And what have they been living with? Because a lot of that stuff is done on purpose and it already sounds good or it was done purposeful, doesn't quite hit the mark, but I get the idea and I can interpret that. You know, a big hall reverb on the snare is important to hear. Even if I can make it better, I want to know that. That's the general vibe that you're going for. So the rough mix is very important. As far as how they deliver the files to me, whether it's, you know, full exported raw multitrack wave files or whether it's a Pro Tools session. The next level of that is do they bounce it where everything is? Is that a good, appropriate, um, uh, digital level? Uh, as opposed to um. If you pull everything up at unity, does it essentially sound like the rough mix? And those are two different schools of thoughts as well. Uh, and, and I kind of think really ties into what you're asking is uh, how far does the producer and the artists take the rough mix stage and do they just want a little bit of surgical EQ, um, or do they want, uh, me to kind of put my stamp on it? Um, and more often than not, it's, uh, it's, it's the ladder where they want me to put my stamp on it. But, regardless, it's important to have that conversation and to get on the same page. Uh, communication is is crucial, um, and yeah, I mean it's one of the first things I ask uh, is, you know, let me hear the rough mix?
Speaker 3:Uh, are there specific things that you like and dislike about it? Are there any other reference tracks that you have in mind? Uh, and, and a lot of times they don't want to give out a whole lot of reference tracks because, you know, of course, their song is completely original, right, there's nothing whatsoever that's in any way, uh, you know, resembles anything else that's ever been done, right? Uh, of course, right, uh. However, you know, if you kind of beat it out of them, you know, you can say well, you know what, I really love the snare drum on this last taylor swift song, or you know, I really love the 808s on this travis scott song. Or you know you can. You can really go with drastically different uh reference tracks without saying you're ripping off a track or a production or a song or any of those things. You're gonna say I like the way, sonically, this makes me feel um.
Speaker 3:Another good trick, uh, in that regard is, uh, you know, to kind of beat that reference track out of them and say, hey, okay, well, let's say, when this is done and it's on, it's put on a Spotify playlist, what would you envision to be before and after it? And that's a way to figure out. You know I can. I can decipher some. I can read between the lines and what they're, what they want. Sometimes they don't know in a very clear, specific manner to say I want very little done or very little. Or you know, put your full stamp on it. They don't clearly know, but I can kind of hear their rough mix and kind of, if nothing else, just be an extra set of ears to say, wow, you guys really did nail this and it doesn't need a whole lot more. But here's what I'm hearing, you know, and I'll send it back to you soon and we'll go from there and again, it's just always about the communication. You know, first, first conversation, I think, and getting on the same page.
Speaker 1:Okay. So you kind of sometimes have to kind of rein in your creativity in order to stay on point with what people expect, but do you ever have like situations where you go, okay, I know exactly what they want, they've been really, really clear. I need to just sit down and do this. However, I also have my own vision for what this could be. Do you ever run off like two different mixes like that?
Speaker 3:Uh, sometimes, um it I think it more so boils down to uh, that initial conversation and to see, uh, how not stuck in their ways they are, but you know how much demo it is they have. How, how in love are they with the current rough mix that they, that they already have line? If I've worked with them for a long time, you know years uh, in some cases, um, that I know, um, you know, based upon past songs that we've done together, uh, how, how they really liked, when I went out on limb for this kind of element here and there and uh, so I can reference, uh, some of those past tracks that we've done, uh, and utilize those same kind of ideas, or at least the limits of those ideas, uh with with new tracks. Uh, I mean, sometimes, sometimes I get it, I get it wrong. Sometimes I do go out on a limb and it's wrong, right, I'm human, just like everyone else.
Speaker 3:It's still an absolutely a, a, a customer focused industry. So it's, it's. I'm not the rockstar, they're the rockstar. So, even though I can put my stamp on it, and sometimes it's for the best, sometimes I can get it wrong and you know, I think it's important for all mix engineers to realize that they're not the rock star and and it can hurt the ego a little bit, but you know, such as life, right, it's still it's, it's customer focused industry. We're a service industry. So, you know, we, we, we got to make it right, regardless of how we get there, uh, and sometimes, unfortunately, it's, it's not uh, as simple as uh. You know, a plus B equals C, kind of kind of a, a formulaic situation, uh, for better or worse, and and yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:No, that's it's. It's great to hear you know. I mean, that's such a professional perspective, um and uh. And you say you're only human. I'm not sure about that, james. I've heard a lot of your mixes. You're a machine, I mean, but you've got to put. You know, your taste is always going to come into it a little bit right, whether it's like a choice of effects or whatever it might be. You know it's all a. Now tell us about, um, coda right, because coda audio room it's your company, it's you. Um, you have set up in chicago, right, which is where you're from. You're in chicago right now, but you reside in london, don't you? Yeah?
Speaker 3:so I grew up in ohio, uh, and I went to university in florida and then I moved to Chicago for 15 years and about halfway through that stint is when I landed in Cotarumadio in the Noble Square area of Chicago. And, yeah, when I decided to move to London about five years ago, I decided to look at, you know, kind an expansion, not a not a like for like traditional expansion but I wanted to keep the chicago location open. Um, I had to get in some, uh additional engineers to kind of do the day-to-day stuff, obviously, which is something that I had not done prior before. It was basically, yes, it was code room audio, but it was just me there as the main guy, with the occasional freelancer uh kind of coming in. And uh, when I, when I, when I moved but wanted to keep it open, uh, I had to think about it a totally different way. Um, the space itself uh isn't isn't especially big. It's an amazing sound and control room um that I feel very much at home at. Uh has a really nice vibed out uh, spacious vocal booth, uh sound lock, um, but but that's it. When I, when I needed to do a full bands or choir orchestra or something, I'd freelance that out of another facility. Um, I'm in a building where there's three other, um, similar size studios as mine on this floor and then I'm a very large one downstairs, um, so I have, you know, relatively easy access if and when uh, it's it's necessary. But, um, yeah, that that's theago side of things.
Speaker 3:Uh, I had anticipated, on opening up a similar size space in london, um, I got there and covet hit, like you know, a month or two later. Yeah, it was, it was, it was bad timing, uh, but you know, covet hit everybody everywhere, like everyone else did, and uh, so I started, you know, I reverted back into the home studio and I've gotten comfortable, uh, and to where you know. Now, you know, years later, I'm still doing most of my mixing and mastering at home, uh, in London, and, yes, I miss my Chicago control room, um, but I'm also not in a in a big rush. Um, I'm waiting for the right opportunity to kind of, uh, you know, present itself in London. Uh, in the meantime, I can freelance uh, you know, depending on what every session needs. But, yeah, that's kind of the situation is that Coder Room physical location is.
Speaker 2:Chicago, where I am right now. That's amazing, isn't it?
Speaker 1:I mean, okay, so the technology has evolved to such a point where you can do this from anywhere, right, pretty much. But I know that I was like you and I had a chat a few weeks, a few months ago, right at the, at the imster fest, where we met right about um, the some of the portable stuff that you use, um, like you use like the universal apollos, but you have them kind of modded or something to be able to. What was that?
Speaker 3:again now, yeah, so I own three different uh universal audio apollo interfaces uh, apollo 16, that's in chicago, uh, an apollo 8 quad, I think is uh the main one I have in london.
Speaker 3:And then I have a portable uh apollo twin, uh quad, I think, um, and what all of them I've had modded by black line audio, which is a chicago company, but they uh, they're, they're internationally known uh, specifically for taking audio interfaces from various third-party companies and and modding them out. So, uh, taking all the you know, the cheap transistors and resistors, and uh, transformers, power supplies, ad card, I mean, you know, whatever, uh, whatever they can get away with swapping out, um, it's not everything that gets swapped out. I mean, it's very strategic and and what, what they feel makes sense, and they mix and match to figure out what makes the best, uh, uh, you know, the biggest bang for your buck, sonic improvements, uh, but a good friend of mine actually worked over there for a long time, so, uh, he's kind of worked out all of all the kinks uh that he's found over the years and and uh, so he modded all three of mine and they make a night and day difference wow, that's so.
Speaker 1:Is there something different, then, about um the way that you can get the best out of your headphones from plugging in your headphones into one of those devices?
Speaker 3:um, well, the headphone amp, specifically uh, is. I know the op amp has changed, uh changed out. I don't know what else uh is changed out, but I know like it is you can immediately hear a difference. It wasn't like I needed to a be it to compare to a different apollo, it was like uh, you know, I haven't heard this interface in a week since, you know, since I sent it off to get modded. But it's back and I know that it just sounds. My room sounds different now. These headphones sound right now in a in a good way. So it's, it's a definitive quality upgrade. As far as technically, what goes on behind the scenes, that's a specialty of mine, but but whatever they're doing, they're doing something right.
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, I'd say I'd say so, I mean, but? But it is perhaps a part of the process that some independent music creators might overlook, because we can plug headphones into a computer, into the headphone jack and then work on a project, open it up quickly, do some edits, record something, and actually we forget that the internal sound card in most laptops is not particularly that good. I mean it does the job, it's audible. Sound card in most laptops is not particularly that good. I mean it sort of does the job, it's audible. But when you get to that kind of net, you know, for those that kind of go, how do I get my mixes to the next level or whatever, and very often it's about how we're hearing what's there, isn't it? So the headphone amp or a sort of digital to analog converter of some kind makes the world of difference, isn't?
Speaker 2:it, it absolutely does.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean digital technology in general, as you know, has come a very, very, very long way. So the old laptops from 10, 15 years ago really didn't sound very good. Now they sound decent, but they're still that next level absolutely. And even what I use isn't top, top, top tier, I think. Even though there is value to that, I think there's kind of a limit to how much makes sense, knowing that the bulk of our consumers at the end they're going to be playing back from an iPhone or an Android or from a laptop or obviously their cars, whatever it may be. I mean we kind of have to factor that into the equation. So it's nice to be able to hear as high fidelity as possible while we're mixing, um, but there's uh, just, I mean just like everything in the industry, I think there's there's a trade-off and a limit. Uh, when you, when you figure out your bank for the buck scenario, tech wise, what do I need versus how will it be played at?
Speaker 3:the end you know it's the same reason why, you'll go to go to a lot of studios and they'll have, you know, multiple different sets of speakers to to be able to monitor on yeah, that's a good point.
Speaker 1:Um, yeah, it's easily overlooked that sometimes I think, um, let's, let's talk about, like, accessibility, right, because I mean, you're, you're, you've got some huge credits to your name, right? You know the likes of kanye west, adam levine, rihanna, the clark sisters, of course, uh, john legend but are your skills and services kind of available and accessible to anyone?
Speaker 3:yeah, yeah, I, I do predominantly independent artists these days actually, um, yeah, it's, I have independent rates, I have major label rates, just like, like most engineers do, um, and and you know, things come in waves as far as major label work uh, but indie artists are, I would, yeah, predominantly what I work with. Um, there's, there's a lot of upside to that, you know you, you get uh generally a bit more creative control, uh, when they're when you don't have you you know many, many different bosses to sign off on things with.
Speaker 3:With major labels, you know you have A&Rs and managers and label execs. So it's it's a less stressful process to work with Indies. It's a more creative process generally to work with Indies and even though you know the rates are lower and when you, when you boil down the amount of time spent, all of a sudden it becomes a toss-up on financially, business-wise, which one makes more sense. So there's absolutely pros and cons to both sides of it, but I enjoy working with both and, yeah, I'm very accessible. Anybody hits me up. I reply to the email. I hear the rough mix. We get on the same page and we see if we can. We can make something work together good for you.
Speaker 1:Good for you, I mean, it's important, isn't it? Because you know there's so many people out there that kind of go right, you know I've got the right song or we've got the right voice, you've got the right group, whatever. But then the mix, that final stage, it's just not quite there and it can might stop a band or a dj or a singer, songwriter from being able to kind of go why can I not get these, these playlists, why can't I get this? Do it. Well, you know, and sometimes it's that stage, isn't it? So it's it's great that they, that you are available to people, uh, you know, I mean absolutely.
Speaker 3:I mean you can have, I mean the song is is first and foremost, what? What is is the most, uh, the biggest part of any track? Of course, right, I mean it starts with the songwriting and then after that it's the performance and the production, then eventually the recording, then eventually the mix and eventually the master. It's a team sport, though, so you don't want to, you know, check all those boxes and have an amazing song, uh, and then and then mix it internally and have it not reach its full potential, um, or have it mixed uh, externally and have it sound great, but then you know, skimp on the mastering process. I mean, I mean it's a team sport. I mean the better the song is, generally speaking, um, the better it's written, the easier it's going to be to perform, the easier it's going to come across in the production stage, easier it is to record, easier it is to mix, etc. Etc. So it's absolutely a team sport and, uh, you know I'm sure it's not, uh, unique just to our, our industry, but you know that's that's a problem. Sometimes people skimp on on certain aspects and and it doesn't allow something to reach its full potential.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah, yeah, mixing, mastering, point of view To be in a big analog mix studio to utilize 50 to 100, 150 patch cables for all that additional outboard gear. It's just too time consuming when your normal artists are so used to working in their own DAWs and their own computers and double clicking a file and boom, that's your full recall, you know, ready to go within a minute. That's not the case with analog gear, and so generally I feel like I can get the sound quicker with analog gear, but then it takes exponentially longer on the backside for recalls, so it doesn't make sense. Plus the additional costs for electricity, the additional costs for upkeep, um, you know, obviously, the lack of portability, uh, is a big part of it as well. So, yeah, I've been completely in the box for mixing and mastering for probably, probably eight or nine years, probably maybe 10 years.
Speaker 3:Really, um, wow, and and yeah, I mean, the first mastering engineer that I worked with that was completely digital was glenn meadows in n in Nashville and his stuff sounded phenomenal. He was doing like Steely Dane and Taylor Swift, uh, completely digital. You know this was, I don't know, seven or eight years ago. Um, I was picking his brain about these things and at the time it really blew my mind that he was 100% digital for those things and uh, and he was very uh, very uh open with with his methods and techniques and and I learned a lot from him but and that was kind of the basis for how I started, uh, mastering and I didn't even think twice about the fact that I wasn't.
Speaker 2:I wasn't using analog gear. That's interesting.
Speaker 1:I mean, that's yeah and I I spoke to. I can't remember his bloody name now, but um ollie, somebody from uh abby road.
Speaker 2:He's a master engineer yes, yeah, it's good, yeah, oh, you know oh great, I thought you would.
Speaker 1:Yeah, um, yeah, lovely, lovely guy, and uh, and he, he was telling me that, you know, he just uses just software, computer, pure digital, and how you know, and you know, and he said something which, which, which was really really good. He said you know, look, I'm you, when I'm mastering, I'm using the same tools as what a mix engineer would. I'm just using them a bit differently, you know, and I know what a great way of explaining it it really is.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's better than I could have put it um now let's, let's just time.
Speaker 1:Jump back a little bit, james, right, let's um. You know you've honed your skills in studios, like you alluded to earlier, when you kind of first started out and stuff. How did you start off in music? Did you always want to be, you know, a producer, an engineer, or did the goal evolve from, like a different musical starting point?
Speaker 3:uh, yeah, I mean, I I started playing trumpet in third grade, like way back in the day. My parents made it and I mean I was awful at it. I was no good at it. Uh, I think I liked the idea of it kind of, but I definitely didn't want to put the work that that that was, uh, you know, mandatory to to become good at it and but, but I'm really happy my parents made me play it.
Speaker 3:Uh, because of that, I ended up going to an arts high school. Uh, because of that, I ended up going to an arts high school. Because of that, I did learn how to read music. I understand melody versus harmony. Because of that, I started to play guitar. That's something I actually did really want to do. So I started doing that in high school. I started learning chord structure and songwriting and I started to sing a little bit.
Speaker 3:Another thing I wasn't especially very good at, nor was I very good at guitar, but because of that, nor was he very good at guitar, but, um, but because of that, uh, that was in, you know, like the year 2000 or 2001 or something. So, uh, you know, a while back now, uh, and uh, you know, we went to record our band's first CD. And that was around about the time where I needed to figure out what I was going to do with my life and I said, Whoa, this guy gets to record music all day. That's, that's pretty cool. So, not something I thought about and, uh, I picked his brain and uh, yeah, eventually that was that's what I decided I wanted to do, is, I was not going to be a rock star, but I could still contribute and be creative.
Speaker 3:Uh, live in the music industry. Uh, and I was always computer savvy. Uh, you know, in nowadays all kids are computer savvy. But you know, at that point, uh, not, not too many were. Um, so I, you know, at that point, not too many were. So, you know, I was able to understand, you know, the basics of digital audio workstations. At that point I got an internship while still in Ohio, Ended up going to an audio college in Florida called Full Sail, and after that I ended up going to Chicago and, like I mentioned, doing that traditional route of, you know, working tons of hours for no money as an intern and then moving up to general assistant and assistant and staff engineer, head staff engineer eventually left, went freelance, eventually opened up my own studio eventually moved to london. Uh yeah, so that's the nudge of the whole thing.
Speaker 1:But yeah, part of a plant trumpet that, that that trumpet's got a lot to answer for, james, I know, right, that's wow. I love that. I love that that was your, your starting point, because if you were to remove that, that trumpet, if you like, then you know you might take a different path maybe.
Speaker 3:Yeah, you're right, I I'm I'm glad that trumpet found its way into your life, mate no, I didn't especially appreciate it at the time but in hindsight, like I said, I'm very happy that that my parents made me stick with it, because I, if I would have had my own choice, I would have not stuck with it for very long sometimes about like kind of points and stuff, and do you kind of just prefer to operate on a kind of fee-based service or do you kind of, um, you know, do you, do you ask for sort of intellectual property rights on songs or on recordings, um, or does it vary quite a lot?
Speaker 1:because I, you know, I asked that question, took out a lot of different people. There's a lot of variables to it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, it varies, but in general most mix engineers, and especially mastering engineers, generally don't get points on records. You'd have to be the top, top, top, you know, top echelon to demand points and to receive points. So it's a rare thing for me and it's more so. It's unfortunately not common for me and it's more so it's it's. It's unfortunately not common for major labels, uh, in myself, uh, and and and my history, but with independence, uh, as a way to kind of pad a lower upfront rate. So, instead of it being a pure work for hire situation, uh, where you don't get any anything on the backend, um, you, you figure out.
Speaker 3:Okay, well, this project maybe has some potential. Uh, I could see this thing having some legs. It doesn't make sense and unfortunately it doesn't make sense a lot of times. And it's also because I have no control over it and that's not a specialty of mine. As far as how does it get marketed? You know, how well is it going to do once it's in the marketplace? You know, it's completely out of my control and it's hard also to factor in from a business standpoint to predict how all that stuff is going to work itself out. So, um, some people, some people, you know, obviously dive more into that side of things, and it works out well for them, but for for me I I tend to just do the straight fee work for hire more often than not yeah, yeah, that's, yeah, it makes a lot of sense, I mean.
Speaker 1:I mean there's been a couple of um media composers that I've interviewed on the podcast and they, they will talk about the importance of how they very often uh, copy mix engineers in on the song split on the publishing side rather than on the recording side, um, so that they benefit from it more, because they say, look, you know, the sonics are so important to this song that's on this production music album that's primarily written for television use, for background use. And so they'll say you know, we, we it's not that we don't want to pay the mix engineer, we're really happy to, but we also pay a fee but also give him or her 10% of the song as well. I mean, I suppose that kind of thing sits more in that particular context. But it makes sense to me to do things like that because you know if somebody takes their song and they go right, here's this song, then here's where we want to go with it, but here's how it could sound if we get james involved.
Speaker 1:It's like those are two going to be two different things, right? So you know that that that remuneration for that, you know, doesn't always have to be necessarily fee based. But then it's like, how much of the heavy lifting do you have to do after that? You know, are you involved with like having to push the song or something? Because that that's a different thing as well, isn't it?
Speaker 3:Absolutely no. I think I agree with everything you've said there. In general, the business side of things does not come natural to me. I'm very much. Let me sit in front of a computer and tinker with something and eventually it's going to sound good and that's what my natural abilities are and and.
Speaker 3:But, as you know, there's so much more to the music industry than that, and so everything else has been me going outside of my comfort zone.
Speaker 3:I mean just even networking. Right, I'm very, very introverted, naturally, but forcing myself to network because, as everyone will tell you, that's so important, eventually I realized that it was important and I forced myself to do that same thing with with anything business related, even you know. For example, you know, looking at my Chicago studios and expansion and keeping it open while I went away and kind of changing the business model on it are not things that were my initial instinct whatsoever. So the same kind of thing with, you know, getting points on any kind of song is, I think it makes a whole lot of sense. You know, getting points on any kind of song is, uh, I I think it makes a whole lot of sense, uh, and for whatever reason, I think a lot of those times it doesn't find me, but, but I don't fight for it either. Um, and I think there's uh, you know, as I mentioned before, I think there's pros and cons to to both sides of it.
Speaker 1:Uh, if it's a conversation an artist or a client wants to have, I'm always open to it, it's just not something that always comes up, I guess. Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Okay, um, good for you. No, that's great man. Um so, james, finally, what advice would you give to emerging creators, particularly um producers in fact, let's, let's go a little wider producers, songwriters and artists, right? What advice would you give them if they're just kind of, you know, starting out their careers, you know, maybe like that sort of five years in or something like that? Um, what advice would you give to them?
Speaker 3:uh, one big thing is is finding a a good, a good team to work with, right, like if we say that it's a team sport uh right, I mean it. Find find what you're really good at, what you're really passionate about. But a good team to work with, right, like if we say that it's a team sport? Uh right, I mean it defined find what you're really good at, what you're really passionate about, but be uh okay with with not micromanaging every aspect. Like it's hard to find someone who can write and perform and produce and record and to do all the different things themselves to a very high standard. Uh, it's very, very rare. It's not impossible, but because there are a few examples of those types, some people will think that that can be everybody and that's going to be detrimental to a lot of people.
Speaker 3:A lot of people don't have any kind of technical ability. They don't have any kind of critical listening skills for high-end, you know, approval, purpose type listening. You know ie, mixing or mastering, um and and. To find a team, uh, that can work within your budget, that can get on the same page as you, that can work towards the same goal. I think that's something that uh is overlooked again, because now you can have logic or able to enter studio one, let alone pro tools, or you know, you know, and and you can do so much of the stuff yourself. Just because you can doesn't mean you should, um, so I think that's the biggest thing that I would maybe tell someone who's as you said, you know, a few years in already has a lot of their bearings in the industry. But, uh, you know, don't, don't try to do everything yourself yeah, that's that's really really sound advice.
Speaker 1:One of the things that I've noticed among many emerging music creators is the inability to finish projects, and I do mention it quite a lot to people because it kind of worries me a bit, because it's not something that people ever used to do.
Speaker 1:Really, I think it's something that's more problematic in the modern era. That's more um, more problematic in the modern era. Um, I, I think I know why it is as well. Actually, I think it's sometimes that people overwhelm themselves right by trying to do too much. Then they lose a bit of motivation, a bit of direction, and actually the reason I mention this now is because I think that the thing that drives that is what you just talked about there.
Speaker 1:Just because you can, doesn't mean you should, right, yeah, yeah, that's a good one. I mean, you know, I mean it's a little bit like um, I don't know um, like I've been playing guitar for like I dread to even think how long. I think it's about 30, about 30 years, jesus, um, anyway, um and so um, but I don't, I I used a lot of samples right as a producer, and it's not, it's just about time, right, and you know, there's so many amazing tools out there. Now it's like, yeah, I could plug in and tune up and do that amp and set this up mic, this, and it'll be a lot of fun, but I could lose a couple of hours there. Or I could get a contact instrument and nail it in 10 minutes. Mm-hmm there, um. Or I could get a contact instrument and nail it in 10 minutes. You know it's it's efficiency, time management stuff again, isn't it? But also, you know you can't do everything right.
Speaker 2:No one can yeah, I wholeheartedly agree with that statement oh, we can't, we think we can, don't we?
Speaker 1:but you know um, but it is what it is, um. James, thank you so much for for for being here, for talking, for sharing yourself, um, and, uh, just being here on the music business. Buddy, you're a top man.
Speaker 2:Happy new year hey, thanks, johnny, I appreciate it ah, good man.
Speaker 1:Uh, I really enjoyed talking to james. He's such a nice fella. I hope that you got a lot out of listening to him. You know, one of the many things that we hear about in this industry is that you know you can't do everything on your own, which you know we hear a lot of people say, and it is about collaboration and it is about teamwork, but the trouble is it can feel quite lonely and quite isolating if we're not careful. So sometimes it really helps us to understand all of the roles that people play in this business, because it helps us to be able to figure out who we then need to work with. You know, and just, for example, just taking someone like James, having his hands on your project right at the end of its creative process, will make an extraordinary difference, you know. So, anyway, I hope that's been useful.
Speaker 1:Wherever you are, have a great day. Feel free to rate the podcast, send me messages anything you like. Feedback is always welcome and encouraged. Okay, right, I will leave you to it now. Have a great day, and may the force be with you.
