The Music Business Buddy
A podcast that aims to educate and inspire music creators in their quest to achieving their goals by gaining a greater understanding of the business of music. A new episode is released each Wednesday and aims to offer clarity and insight into a range of subjects across the music industry, all through the lens of a music creator for the benefit of other music creators. The series includes soundbites and interviews with guests from all over the world together with commentary and clarity on a range of topics. The podcast is hosted by award winning music industry professional Jonny Amos.
Jonny Amos is a music producer with credits on a range of major and independent labels, a songwriter with chart success in Europe and Asia, a senior lecturer in both music creation and music business at BIMM University UK, director of The SongLab Ltd and the author of The Music Business for Music Creators.
www.jonnyamos.com
The Music Business Buddy
Episode 38: An Insight Into Artist Deals with Music Lawyer Mimi Camara
In this engaging episode, we explore the intricate dynamics of the music industry with esteemed attorney Mimi Camara, who has dedicated her career to helping independent artists navigate the complex world of contracts and negotiations. From balancing her legal practice with motherhood to understanding the current trends influencing music consumption, Mimi shares invaluable insights that aspiring musicians can leverage for success. She highlights the transformative impact of social media in the music business and the importance of viewing oneself as a brand and a business from day one.
Mimi's journey exemplifies the power of strategic negotiation, with her experiences guiding emerging artists to ask for what they deserve rather than settling for uninspiring offers. She urges artists to foster confidence in their worth and to leverage their growing online presence when entering discussions regarding contracts. Moreover, the episode dives deeply into the importance of communication within the industry, especially as it relates to personal balance and supporting creative aspirations.
By the end of the episode, listeners gain practical tips on how to align their artistic vision with business strategies, enriching their careers while ensuring they remain connected to their roots. This heartfelt exchange not only examines the legalities of music but also celebrates the human side of artistry. Join us for this heartening conversation and learn how to raise your hand, believe in yourself, and invite good opportunities into your journey. Don’t forget to subscribe, share the love, and join in on the vibrant community of music creators!
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The Music Business Buddy. The Music Business Buddy Hello everybody and a very, very warm welcome to you. You're listening to the Music Business Buddy with me, johnny Amos, podcasting out of Birmingham in England. I'm the author of the book the Music Business for Music Creators, available in hardback, paperback and ebook format. I'm also a music creator with credits on a variety of major and indie labels. As a writer, producer, I'm also a senior lecturer in music business and music creation. Wherever you are and whatever you do, consider yourself welcome to this podcast and to a part of the community around it. I'm here to try and educate and inspire music creators from all over the world in their quest to achieve in their goals by gaining a greater understanding of the business of music.
Speaker 1:Okay, so in today's episode I am talking to US-based music, new media and entertainment attorney, mimi Kamara. Mimi is a very, very impressive person who's been in the business for quite a few years now. She's worked with artists such as Youngin, ace, gracie's Corner and the legendary Soulja Boy, and has helped to transform rising talent into industry success stories. So, after leading deals at Warner Music Group, she now runs her own practice focused on helping independent artists build sustainable careers while avoiding costly industry pitfalls. Her work is done with integrity and kindness strategy. She is absolutely wonderful and I think that what you hear from her today will be very useful, so I shall hand over to the interview now. Take a pen and paper, take some notes and enjoy what you're about to hear, mimi. Welcome to the Music Business, buddy. It's good to have you here. How are you?
Speaker 2:I am doing great, fantastic. Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 1:Good, oh no, thank you for being here. You know, it's like I was just saying to you a few moments ago. You know, looking at things through the legal lens is the most useful aspect, right, because it teaches us the boundaries, it teaches us possibilities and all that kind of stuff. Right so? But I want to ask you about the balance of it all. Right, because you know I'm going to start by congratulating you, right, because I've read up on you and your achievements and what you do and what you've done, and you're a very, very successful legal professional with a huge list of accolades to your name, and you're a champion for art and for artists and you know you're a working mum too. You are a winner in my eyes, right? How did you get the balance right in this kind of rapid, pressurized, constantly evolving business?
Speaker 2:that is such a good question, and I would be a liar if I told you that I had balance, because I definitely don't.
Speaker 2:There are days when I have to sacrifice being with my daughter because I have to, you know, do big picture and get a deal off the line, and there are some other days where I have to put my bat phone I like to call it on, do not disturb and be a present mother, and I don't think I've struck the perfect balance yet and I don't think that that exists. I think that every day, I can only do but so much, and I'm getting to the point where I have to even talk to my therapist about not feeling guilty about not getting everything done and being open and communicative on both sides of the equation, whether it's I'm a single mother, so whether it's trying to make my four-year-old understand that mommy has to work in order to pay bills and we can't play T-Rex at this time and speaking to my clients to let them know that I have all of your dates on the horizon. I just need to take these three hours for my family and and you will be okay.
Speaker 1:But constant communication and being honest with yourself is the only way to make it through these kind of hectic times that's so honest and, um, really refreshing as well to hear you, to hear you say that, um, but I I think you're doing an exceptional job. I really you know like you're gonna get there's gonna be a stage in the future where, like you know where your daughter looks back and be like, oh my god, wow, you are a superhero. And all that time you had a bat phone. You never told me I'm.
Speaker 2:I am hoping that I try to incorporate my daughter in my work as much as possible. I have a lot of apps that do children's music on YouTube and live experiences, so I'll take her to the studio with me to demo some songs with you know, my producer clients, you know, if there's not too much weed, smoking and profanity going along, she likes to dance, smoking and profanity going along, she likes to dance. So we'll go to the studio and she'll just put her soundproofing headphones on and wiggle about to just, you know, kind of see what mommy does and realize what art is. And that too also, I find, humanizes me to my clients and they kind of see that well, if you're a mom and you're protecting this person, you're going to protect me with the same kind of vigor. So I try to blend everybody together so everyone understands that I'm trying to do my best to guide and protect everyone through life that's love.
Speaker 1:I love that there. There is such a good set of values there that are completely transferable right From the professional life and the business life to the you know that's lovely. That's really inspiring to hear you say that. Well, let's talk about. You know the changes in the landscape of the. You know the financial side of the industry. What changes are you seeing in terms of you know of how the money is flowing in the music business?
Speaker 2:Such a great question and I think that, if I'm comparing 2025 to 2020, the deals are more financially conservative.
Speaker 2:I will say that I think that at the advent of the TikTok boom, the contracts that were coming out were seven and eight figure deals and the proposals would just be out the door before artists even had an opportunity to sit with any of the executives at the label side.
Speaker 2:It was just okay. I know that I can get on a plane and see this person because, no matter what, I'll have a million dollars in pocket, but I do find that in today's climate, labels are really making more of an effort to sit down and have these kind of dialogues before even drawing up an idea of what a contract could be. I think this is for the good, because we're talking about building a sustainable business as opposed to pacing a TikTok trend, and labels are I don't want to reuse the word humanizing the process, but that's how I feel Insisting on sitting down with people before we're getting to paperwork. I feel now that you're not looking at artists as a commodity anymore and you're really trying to see where we're going to go in three years, in five years, in 10 years.
Speaker 1:It's certainly something that I've noticed. The trend even since the turn of the decade, from when you know the peak of TikTok in the lockdowns, all that kind of stuff, to now you know things have changed quite a lot and you know labels have to react to it right. So it's really interesting to hear that that's been a part of your observation.
Speaker 2:By nature, labels are reactionary and I also think that this is empowering for the artist too, because a lot of people are now being more proactive about what the other ancillary income streams are and not relying just on that big, hefty one-time advance that might be the only money you get from the label for the next three to five years and figuring out well, what else am I going to do to grow my brand and to have income coming along very active in non-musical content on YouTube while pursuing their musical careers? As reality TV has also kind of shrunken in the last five years with all the guild strikes and whatnot, even content is being just on YouTube and people are watching it. So a lot of slice of life, youtube shows where people are cooking, shopping, just giving a video diary about their day. They're having six to seven figure income streams on that non-musical YouTube content and paralleling that with their record deals.
Speaker 1:Wow. Well, that's kind of changes everything, doesn't it? I mean, let's talk about negotiation in that respect, especially in regard to how artists can leverage better deals in the modern era. You've negotiated on the rights of YouTube sensation Grace's Corner. Also, you know rap pioneer Soulja, soldier boy. You know what? What can the listeners of this show take away from your experiences there?
Speaker 2:not being afraid to ask for the sun, the moon and the stars and, I think, soldier boy for all of the um, all of the press around him. I think he really is a. I think his longevity up until this point and the fact that he's been able to remain relevant across, musically relevant, across four decades it's a testament to his bravery and his forward thinking and not being afraid to be like this. I want X. I don't care how we get to X, but this is what I want and, as opposed to sometimes artists will cower because, well, I don't want this to be the last deal that I ever get. I don't want this to be the only time you entertain me, so let me just sign what's in front of me and we'll figure it out along the way.
Speaker 2:You do get what you negotiate and you can use your social media and the engagement that you get on your social media as leverage into pushing why your payments should be broken up in this way or why you deserve a short-term license deal as opposed to a work-for-hire copyright license. He is somebody that can easily say every time I go on Instagram Live, 100,000 people watch to listen to what I have to say. So whether it's a brand deal, whether it's a distribution deal for a record label, you know at least a hundred thousand people every day are tuning into me. So what are you going to offer to make my hundred thousand year do business with you?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that makes that makes perfect, perfect sense. But you correct me if I'm wrong here, but you come at this from a major label background, right? So you know? Something I've noticed in recent years is the growing number of artists that often perhaps start with on a major label or perhaps a large indie label, and then wish to move into a more flexible position by working perhaps directly with a distributor or hiring their own teams instead. Have you noticed that shift?
Speaker 2:that it's something that I deal with every day, and that was a silly question, sorry, yeah, of course, but it's the question du jour really.
Speaker 2:So, first of all, there's no such thing as a silly question, but that really is the essence of what artist deals are right now. Or am I going to do deals with super lawyer? The answer. But the question really is it depends. I have to have a very long consultation session with my clients and ask them well, who do you want to be? Are you looking to be the next Bruno Mars, or or are you comfortable with the idea of being a Chance the Rapper?
Speaker 2:Both these people are super successful, rabid fan base, very wealthy, but they did it in different terms. When I think of Bruno, I'm probably a little biased in this story because I did work at Atlantic for such a long time, but this is something that is an artist development story. It was a partnership between the two parties and it was a long standing relationship and a lot of blood, sweat and tears on both sides of things that got him to be the two. But he stayed within his team, he stayed independent and he had a handful of people that he trusted and he took the journey with them and ended up pretty, pretty great. So, and and that kind of I don't want to say anonymity, because obviously if Chance walks down the street everyone's going to go crazy. But the relative scale of pandemonium between Bruno and Chance not everybody wants that and that's OK. And that aspect of self-discovery will inform what kind of deals that we do.
Speaker 1:I guess then one of the important facets of that latter point you made there with Chance the Rapper is that if you know what you want that team to look like, and if you know what those ideals look like, then it can work that way.
Speaker 2:But if you're sort of for the want of a, a nicer term, stuck with a team that don't get it, um then it's much harder oh yes, and there are some people too that walk into the the idea of I want the big major label team and, like you said, for whatever reason, there's just no cohesiveness. They don't understand you don't understand what they want, they don't understand what you want. And then you end up looking for a divorce a year or so in. So in order to avoid the heartache and pain that sometimes goes into that, especially if I have clients that are on the younger side, because I do have 16, 17 year olds that are finishing high school and concurrently thinking about signing deals, because the way that social media works, as long as you have a phone, you're able to build a business and build a fan base and you know we're talking about.
Speaker 2:Well, do I give up going to uni or am I going to do this full force? I say let's meet with distributors so that way you can have another year or two to incubate your thoughts and incubate how you feel. Have another year or two to incubate your thoughts and incubate how you feel, and if the distribution path is working well for you, we'll ask for more money and build a bigger team around you and if it's not, we'll use that momentum that because the distributor doesn't want you to stay stagnant. They're going to also do whatever that they can to keep the momentum up on the independent business that you've already built. So after that one to two year term is over, we can upstream into a major label if you still feel like you need that pomp and circumstance. But the divorce side of things it happens more often than you think.
Speaker 1:May I just say you are so impressive. I mean you, you, you know, really, you. I've met so many lawyers over the years, from doing music for like. However many years I've been involved in the business in various guises I can't think of another lawyer that has ever been as impressive as you. Because I don't really mean this. Maybe, right, because you're a strategist as well as a lawyer, right, you? Okay, you know the law, you've studied the law, you've seen some of the changes that have gone on in the business and all that. But the things that you're talking about now, in my view, sit also slightly outside of the realm of many lawyers, which is strategic advice, like the kind of advice that managers and A&Rs and marketeers give to artists and it is not every lawyer speaks like that.
Speaker 2:That's what I mean. Well, I am not somebody who takes compliments.
Speaker 1:well, Well, you should.
Speaker 2:I will take it.
Speaker 2:I'm humbled, I appreciate it, but to me it's just common sense.
Speaker 2:And I do think that part of the reason why I lawyer this way is because I've been on both sides of the equation and I've seen all the times when it's been amazing and it works well, and I've seen all the times where it fails.
Speaker 2:All the times where it fails, and if you do something over and over again and you know it's going to be a bad result, it's insanity. So I do try to appreciate this as a principled role to avoid artists in in getting closer and closer to insanity. And it's just like if you already have seen this script 37 times, why continue to do the same thing over and over again? And I also think it's very important to not get lost on the fact that we're talking about human beings and human beings require strategy and implementation, just forethought and strategic planning, because you think well, because this person is left brain and likes music and likes art, they'll be happy so long as they have a roof over their head and they're continuing to do music. But it doesn. The audience grows up when the artist grows up, when the artist decides they don't want to do this anymore and they want to be 65 and retire on the Amalfi Coast because, they don't necessarily have the wherewithal to do all of that.
Speaker 2:So I believe, as an attorney, my job is to have your retirement plan somewhat situated, while incorporating all of the romantic parts that make you you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well put, well put. I love that as well, that kind of the personal care side of things, because it's something which is so easy to overlook sometimes. I was talking to a previous guest on this show a few weeks ago and we were talking about the idea of working with, you know, people that are very famous, that are very successful, and he referred to it as bedside manner, ie the idea of just being normal and nice, because they're normal and nice and they have the same problems that everybody else has. And I think sometimes perhaps social media, um, can paint a different picture than the reality and therefore it can be easy to buy into this idea that, you know, successful people are superheroes and they're just people, right?
Speaker 2:they, they cut when you bleed. They put their pants on one leg at a time, just like everybody else and I think, to me, because artists are blessed with such extraordinary talent, it's somewhat isolating because you're speaking a language that only you can understand when you're putting together the music, and it's sometimes hard to communicate when you're so enveloped in making art, and I just don't want people to be taken advantage of and I want you to be able to live in that kind of crystal ball beautiful world that you, you created for yourself, and make sure that I don't lose sight of the fact that you're still a regular person at the end of the day, who just happens to have an extraordinary gift that's uh, absolutely, that's such a lovely perspective.
Speaker 1:I love that. That's so not. I really I feel really touched by what you just said there. I really it's lovely. Um, one of the questions that people often um I I hear artists in particular ask is you know when is the right time to work with a, with a right you know? And some people say, well, it's when it's time to negotiate or when it's time to try and source introductions or solicitation on some level. What's your answer to that question?
Speaker 2:My answer to the question would be the day that you decide that you want your music to be a business, you should consult with an attorney. Now, there are many different kinds of attorneys. There are attorneys that will charge you a consultation fee, and I don't think that that is the type of lawyer that you need to sit with. That might be something a little more elevated than what you need when you're starting on the day one, but there are lawyers, like myself, that like to get into the trenches with people on day one and ride the elevator of success with you along the top. And there are people who just stand by a 5% commission when you bring, when your business starts bringing in money. That's when I will take payment and that's when you know I will take a commission. And those are the type of people that you should seek out, because it might be something as simple as okay, I've decided that I want to start my business.
Speaker 2:What type of incorporation should I use? Should I be an incorporation or a limited liability incorporation? And speaking to a lawyer about that can help you so that, even if If you've not brought in any money that first year, but you've spent money on an MPC and you've spent money on traveling to networking events, you'll at least have a tax refund because you've established yourself as the appropriate corporate entity and you've organized your receipts in a way so that the government knows that you've started an endeavor and that maybe $250 tax refund might be enough to, to you know, get you going to the, the next writing camp where you make your big break. But you're not going to have those kind of conversations if you keep them to yourself and you wait until the moment that you get discovered to start talking to people. The day that you decide that you're a business, that's the the day that you should seek to build your team, and a legal advisor is a is a very central part of that team beautifully put, really put, really appreciate your answer there.
Speaker 1:That's a final question for you, mimi, and actually it's kind of similar to what we were just talking about there, actually, but are there any tips that kind of spring to mind that you can give to emerging artists that are new to the business, that wish to, you know, protect their careers and clear their path towards success?
Speaker 2:so many tips. The trend, the trend that I'm seeing now, is that there there are a lot of like brokers on on social media, in the streets, like, oh, you want a record deal? Well, I know, exit sony. If you agree to give me 25 of the advance, I'll make an introduction for you and a lot of people are too antsy, like they just want to get the deal done. They want to get cash in their pocket, and what they're not calculating is you're going to have to give the broker 25%, then give your manager 20% and then eventually call your lawyer in for 5% and you're walking away with even less money than that you would have ordinarily been entitled to. If it sounds too good to be true, it usually is. And as desperate I know that we all are to keep rents paid and keep food on the table, sometimes it's better to walk in with that proof of concept rather than pay your way through getting a deal yeah, absolutely, that's solid advice and it can be so tempting.
Speaker 1:I think, um, I I also see um something that you alluded to earlier the the craving for many emerging artists to want to be signed to a large, well-known label. I I understand the desire. I once felt like that too as a younger man, but especially amplified perhaps in the social media era where so many people are desperate to have that tagline of I'm signed to Warner or I'm signed to Sony or RCA, whoever you know, and it can be like a carrot that people dangle that are only very, very tenuously associated with people that may or may not have worked there at some point, and it's like, how do people navigate that? It's very, very difficult waters to tread for a lot of people.
Speaker 2:Exactly again. To kind of bring up the first part of the conversation, distributors now are offering the same deals that you're getting at the record labels financially, with shorter terms, higher profit splits and a lot more flexibility. So it really is a you dependent question as to whether or not that big name is right for you or if you should. You know, give distributors like two loss, even Virgin. Virgin isn't affiliated with universal music, but give those type of scenarios a a a chance, because your, your pockets, might be exactly the same, but you're looking at something that's ending in three years versus being in a deal that could end 15 years from signing yeah, good point.
Speaker 1:Wow, um, I know how busy you are, so I will. I will let you go. For now. May I just say a huge, huge thank you for opening up, sharing yourself, for your time here today and also, more importantly, for everything that you do for artists, for music creators. I think if there were more people in the world like you, mimi, this business would be even better than it already is.
Speaker 2:Well, I appreciate your time and allowing me to share my story with artists. I just want you to trust your gut, believe in yourself. Good people will find you if you raise your hand and let them find you.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's a beautiful note to end it on. Oh, I feel like I strum a chord after you just said I love it.
Speaker 1:You are a star. Thank you so much. What a lovely lady. What an absolutely superb example of a music industry professional. She really cares about what she does, doesn't she? And why would she not? You know, it's just absolutely refreshing to be able to hear her insight, especially now in the modern era. You know she's talking about things that she's seen change even since the start of the decade that we're in now. She is one of these people that goes into bat for artists and tries to improve the overall industry that we are in. We need people like Mimi, and I hope that you enjoyed listening to her. Let's just roll back to one thing that she said earlier and keep this with you.
Speaker 2:Good people will find you if you raise your hand and let them find you.
Speaker 1:Nice, okay, I think, with Mimi in the music industry. Well, I just think it makes for a better industry. I'm sure you'd agree. Anyway, I will leave you to it for now. Feel free to send me messages, send me requests of things that you want covered. I'm here to help you. Please rate the podcast and all that good stuff. I will see you next time. Have a great day, and may the force be with you.
