The Music Business Buddy
A podcast that aims to educate and inspire music creators in their quest to achieving their goals by gaining a greater understanding of the business of music. A new episode is released each Wednesday and aims to offer clarity and insight into a range of subjects across the music industry, all through the lens of a music creator for the benefit of other music creators. The series includes soundbites and interviews with guests from all over the world together with commentary and clarity on a range of topics. The podcast is hosted by award winning music industry professional Jonny Amos.
Jonny Amos is a music producer with credits on a range of major and independent labels, a songwriter with chart success in Europe and Asia, a senior lecturer in both music creation and music business at BIMM University UK, director of The SongLab Ltd and the author of The Music Business for Music Creators.
www.jonnyamos.com
The Music Business Buddy
Episode 43: The Art of Artist Development with Laurence Hobbs
What does it take to spot star potential in today's crowded music landscape? Laurence Hobbs, platinum-selling producer and songwriter pulls back the curtain on artist development with refreshing honesty and decades of wisdom.
Lawrence's journey from songwriter to CEO of SAFO Music Group reveals the profound shifts reshaping how artists build sustainable careers. "Back in the day, you either got a record deal or you didn't. Now you can release however you want," he explains, highlighting how technology has democratized music creation while creating new challenges for those seeking to stand out.
Throughout our conversation, Lawrence challenges conventional industry wisdom with thoughtful observations. He describes spotting that elusive "it factor" in artists like Sam Smith and a 12-year-old singer who's now landing on New Music Friday playlists. Yet he passionately argues there's room for everyone: "Don't tell me in a population of billions you can't find 5,000 fans. You just haven't worked hard enough."
Our discussion takes a fascinating turn when examining how AI might reshape songwriting. Laurence draws from his extensive experience to provide context: "We both remember when samplers came in and musicians thought they were finished." While acknowledging AI's potential to write commercial hits, he maintains human creativity and connection will always have value – especially for artists who understand the business landscape they're navigating.
Perhaps most inspiring is Laurence's commitment to inclusivity across age groups. "Music should never be exclusively for 15, 18-year-olds," he insists, sharing stories of talented musicians discovering their creative voices in their 60s and 70s. His vision of the future prioritizes artist empowerment: "We're in the entrepreneur age. It's your business, your money, your gigs."
Discover the building blocks of a sustainable music career and why Lawrence remains optimistic about the future despite industry upheavals. What might your musical journey look like if you approached it with the right knowledge and community support?
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The Music Business Buddy. The Music Business Buddy. Hello everybody and a very warm welcome to you. You're listening to the Music Business Buddy with me, johnny Amos, podcasting out of Birmingham in England. I'm the author of the book the Music Business for Music Creators, available in hardback, paperback and e-book formats. I'm also a music creator with a variety of credits I'm a consultant, an artist manager and a senior lecturer in both music creation and music business. Wherever you are, whatever you do, consider yourself welcome to this podcast and to a part of the community around it. I'm here to try and educate and inspire music creators from all over the world in their quest to achieving their goals by gaining a greater understanding of the business of music.
Speaker 1:Okay, in this week's episode, I am talking to Lawrence Hobbs, who is a platinum-selling producer and songwriter that signed to Notting Hill Music Publishing and 23rd Precinct Music Publishing. As a writer-producer, lawrence has written for many acts, including Sam Smith, pixie Lott, shane Ward, andy Abraham, scarlett Lee, laura White and many more. He's written songs that have reached number one in seven countries and also composed songs and instrumentals for television, including BBC and Sky. Lawrence is also CEO of Sappho Music Group in London Now Sappho Music Group. He'll tell you a little bit more about it in this interview, but it is effectively an artist development system that empowers independent music creators to find a career. He does a very, very good job at it. He's got a brilliant track record of working with emerging talent and when we say emerging talent, by the way, we don't always mean young talent, which is something that we will talk about later in today's interview.
Speaker 1:Lawrence is also a very, very good friend of mine and somebody that I've known for a very long time. He and I have been through quite a lot together in the music industry. We've worked with a lot of artists together. We've written songs together, we had a little hit together a few years ago, and he is just a great, great, great guy. I'm going to hand over to the interview. Enjoy what he has to say and I'll see you at the end. Here we go, lawrence. Welcome to the music business, buddy. Good to have you here, mate. How are you?
Speaker 2:Absolute pleasure and honoured that you've asked me, johnny, thank you. It's lovely to see you, mate. I've been listening to it for ages and it's great man, it's great information, oh really. Well, because you've been mentioned on here before right by Jamie Sellers, my good friend Jamie Sellers, who's an amazing guy and not a bad producer.
Speaker 1:He has his moments. That's funny. It's funny because he says lovely things about you. You say lovely things about him, except when I see you in the same room you're just taking the mick out of each other constantly.
Speaker 2:Well, the thing is, jamie worked for me when he came down to London, as he told you the story, and I had my little, first little disc at the time and I said, jamie, when you're as good as me, mate, you'll have a disc or two, but I don't think you'll probably get there. Anyway, after he worked with Ed Sheeran, elton John and three number ones I'm not fit to speak to him, I don't think he answers my calls anymore, I'm not worthy, but I'm so proud and pleased for him. He's a top fellow and super talented and it was lovely listening to him on your podcast.
Speaker 1:Ah, top man, he's a lovely guy, and so are you, mate, and you know, I mean, if it wasn't, I wouldn't know, jamie, if it wasn't for you, right? And there's probably many people in this business that would say, oh yeah, I know about that, or I know that person, or because of Lawrence, you know, I mean, you are loved by many.
Speaker 2:Well, that just means I'm old Johnny, One of the two.
Speaker 1:No, not at all mate.
Speaker 2:You're still playing football aren't?
Speaker 1:you don't look so surprised.
Speaker 2:But yes, I do play football. Yes, I do very badly. Yeah, no, I'm good, no, no.
Speaker 1:Um. So, lawrence you, you are the ceo of of sappho music group in london. Um, I know a thing or two about it, but for the benefit of the listeners, would you mind telling us a little bit about what you do and the role that your company plays in the music industry, because it's a talent pipeline, right?
Speaker 2:No, absolutely so. I've been running Sappho Music for about nine or 10 years A couple of partners, I now run it by myself and primarily, I think we're a music hub and a community. I'm a great believer in networking and giving people opportunities. You know, my own sort of travel or journey into music wasn't easy. It took a long time to get to where I wanted to get to and now I'm in a position to help people, help artists or just give them advice.
Speaker 2:We're very much about that. It's not so much, you know, come here and we take your money. It's not about that. We do lots of things. We work with schools, we work in the community, we work with artists. We do free networking every month. They're amazing nights. We do free networking every month. They're amazing nights. We do free songwriting.
Speaker 2:So we like to develop a community here, because I think for me in my life in music it's been about the people. I've got to know who's helped me you included, you know and I think the more that we can share and the more we can help each other, the better, for up-and-coming artists are better for all of us. And I found one of the things which is weird, being the age I am, I've got a lot in common musically with, say, a 16, 17 or 18 year old, because I get the music that they get, you know, and I think that's quite a powerful connecting factor. So I think primarily we are an artist development company. That's quite a powerful connecting uh factor. So I think primarily we are an artist development company, that's to say, working with artists to help them get out there in the music industry in a safe, um, positive environment, but working with the community again to help them get out there.
Speaker 1:What a sounds sounds like a sales pitch. That's brilliant, mate. That's a wonderful, wonderful explanation, and a modest one too, because I know what a huge impact you've had on many artists and writers and producers, you know, over the years. Let's talk about artist development. Right, you've had many, many artists walk through your doors over the years, some of whom have gone on to, you know, big things in the music industry. Is there often like a kind of special spark that you notice in an artist, even if it's really early on in their career?
Speaker 2:it's really funny you say that because it's very apt at the moment. About six or seven years ago, a very young 12-year-old girl walked in and she had something and it was either the personality or the talent. It was something special about her and I've noticed in the last few months her name's Erin LeCount. She's been on New Music Friday three times. She's building and building, and building, and I was speaking to a few industry people and she's very highly rated and I think she'll do very well. But I knew at 12 she had something special.
Speaker 2:Really, you know, and I've worked with a few people. I worked with Pixie Lott when she was 13, 14, 15. Again, she stood out. I worked with Sam Smith at the beginning and again something about him stood out as a person. And I think it is about the person, it's about their attitude, their musicality. Actually it is something which just stands out. And so I'm not saying I can spot it, I'm not saying I'm a great talent spotter, but certainly Erin especially, I always remembered her and when I saw her on New Music Friday and investigated what she's doing, I thought, yeah, I get it. So, yes, I do think there are certain things that stand out, with people Not saying that people who don't stand out can't do well, but there are certain one or two people you just think just rise above. They're the cream in the milk.
Speaker 1:Interesting. Okay, see, now, contrary to your belief there, I actually think that you are one of those people that is very good at spotting it, and you and I have worked with a lot of artists together over the years, right, and you know, and sometimes we'll talk between ourselves and go, oh, they've got something, or that group, they've got some kind of synergy about them or whatever it might be, and it's a very, very difficult thing to try and explain what it is, absolutely, absolutely, which is which is really frustrating for artists, because they're like, well, what do we need to?
Speaker 2:be, but this is a thing I mean. Those people, for me, stand out, and they've done ever so well. You know their household names are certainly Sam and Pixie are, but that doesn't mean you can't be successful, that doesn't mean you can't have a career in music, and I think they'll always be the Elton Johns and George Michaels. These are freaks. These are amazing artists who, no matter what era or genre or whatever, they'll do well. But there's room for thousands and thousands of other people. You don't have to have that it. You have to have a lot of other things, which is mostly hard work and attitude and persistence and all the things every artist knows about. So I do think these people are freaks and these people in a beautiful way. But that doesn't mean there's no room for everyone else. There is. It's an amazing time for music at the moment.
Speaker 2:When I was growing up, as you were growing up so, johnny, to an extent you know, we played in bands. Now you either got a record deal or you didn't, and that was it, and so it was very easy. You know we didn't get a record deal, so we weren't successful because we couldn't release songs. Now you can release. Now you can't have people telling you what to do or how to do it. You can do exactly the way you want to, and that's so liberating. You know, wherever you are. I have artists saying oh, I'm 40 or I'm 20 or I'm 90. I can't release music. I say to them listen to Spotify. How old are they? You don't care, you just like the music, whereas before, if you're over 20, that's it, it's over. So I think although, as I said, there are always these people who are amazing will continue to be amazing.
Speaker 1:There's room for everyone, and that's such a great place to be absolutely well, let's talk about uh, let's stay with artists, right, let's talk about the kind of the common mistakes that sometimes artists can make when they're trying to present themselves. Um, are there any particular common mistakes that you notice in emerging artists?
Speaker 2:mistakes are such a hard word. It was interesting. I was listening to your lost past podcast and, uh, your amazing lawyer, mimi, who talked about getting deals and offer deals, and I think that's so rare. You know, for most artists they'll never get a deal, but it doesn't matter. So I think, if they're not really mistakes because no one has the same way of making a career of music I think there are common commonalities as come back to your hard work and attitude. But I've seen so many people do OK, just sitting in a room doing music, making music. Now, is that a mistake? Well, some people might say you've got to play live. No, you don't. It helps. It may help or may do at some point.
Speaker 2:I would say then the only mistake really is is, I suppose, a lack of work just releasing one song and thinking that'll, that'll get you to the top. You know, um, we look at the. You know the tiktok generation, where they're posting every day and they're pushing themselves every day. The YouTubers do that. Well, the musicians have to do the same. You know, these days it's about release, release, release, build and not expecting you're going to get a hundred thousand or a million in the first week. So I think consistency is one of the things and you see a lot of artists they'll release four or five songs doesn't do very well and not give up, but just realize how hard it is actually. That leads me on. So, yeah, probably mistake is not realizing how hard it is actually. Yeah, I do think, and not having I.
Speaker 2:I have a real problem with the disconnect between the education sector and actually the music sector, because education they tell you what to do but not how to do it. It's almost like hey, do your song, release it, get it out there. They don't literally tell you you've got to be doing it all the time. You've got to be doing your socials, you've got to be doing everything possible and genuinely that's hard for most people. Back in the day it was you play with your band, you get a deal and they do it all for you because you've got to do it yourself. Then you have to be everything and I come back to there are people who can do that, but I do think singers, musicians, songwriters find it really really, really hard.
Speaker 2:So if there is a mistake, it's not understanding the landscape and understanding how they can generate money. So it's almost coming back to the education, of understanding the business of music. So I think that would be the commonality, rather than, dare I say, lack of talent, whatever that is, I do think it is knowing your business. I think that's probably the big thing. You know I'm a great believer that. Don't tell me, in a population of billions you can't find 5,000 fans. You just haven't worked hard enough. Really, you know there'll be people who like everyone's music. You've just got to find them. So mistakes, yeah, maybe just understanding the business and not working hard enough.
Speaker 1:Good answers. Yeah, you talk about finding an audience there. I'm agreeing, by the way, with everything you're saying. We always agree, don't we mate?
Speaker 2:We do, except for football. We, mate, we do, except for football. But go on. Yeah, that's another story.
Speaker 1:But I'm nodding along with you and agreeing with you and I'm looking at the patterns in which I observe when artists and labels kind of do get it right and they are able to connect to that audience. And of course, it's far more than just music, um, it's. It's it's shared values, common interest, things that music creators are doing outside of music that kind of helps to propel that music and that can be something which is not natural or perhaps even sometimes overlooked, because if you're committed to working on your artist project, you're thinking about that and nothing else, right, which is the kind of work rate that we're referring to. But therefore there's not a whole lot of room for those other things. But it's almost like a lot of artists to be expected to be, I don't know, good at cookery or skateboarding or something else. That kind of falls in line with the branding and the image of their music. That's difficult as well. It's natural for some people. Yeah, I agree, you know it's a strange one, isn't it? It's a tough thing to try and get right for people.
Speaker 2:You know what. It's something I'm thinking about. Recently, you know, I come in. I got to say back in the day all right, you know, from hundreds of years ago when I looked at you know I love Top of the Pops. I didn't know about anything about their mental health, I didn't know anything about their personality. We were given what we were given and I think that they were fine for that. You know, we found out years later some horrible, nasty people who were pop stars.
Speaker 2:These days it's very hard. It seems like you've got to have some sort of issue or interest or something. So people become interested in you. And I've had artists saying I'm just a singer, I'm quite happy, I love doing my music, but I can't find an audience because there's I won't say nothing wrong, that's the wrong way to say it, but there's nothing different. Or I just do music and that's it.
Speaker 2:And that can be quite tough where they say people talking about, as you say, their interests or their issues. But then I suppose it's just about doing what they believe in. You know, playing to your strengths. I don't think you have to invent anything or be someone to be successful. So people buy into you. I do think if the music connects, then that's probably enough. But you've again, you've got to keep posting that, you've got to keep pushing or showing people what you're about. So I do agree it's. It's in many ways it's very, very hard to be an artist because of that, because of social media, but not impossible. And I do think you know we come back to releasing and releasing your music and getting an audience that connects with what you're about, and that's still definitely possible yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Oh. You always talk a lot of sex or just a lot we've.
Speaker 2:We've not spoken for ages I miss you, man, and you and you um.
Speaker 1:So let's talk about imitation for a minute, right, because this is, this is an interesting subject because, if you think about it, when people begin to make music, they very often start by imitating Um. And so it's quite an important sort of pivot point in order for people to be able to go, let me replicate what inspires me, and then I find myself after that and that's great. It's worked for many, many, many people, absolutely yeah. But when it comes to content whether that be video, audio content, whatever it might be, anything that's kind of social media-type content, where people and artists are trying to connect to their fan base there's very often an inclination to imitate what they see around them, and it can kind of create this almost like this culture of kind of brain rot, where you've kind of got like I was at an event last week and somebody actually used that term brain rot.
Speaker 1:How do I get through the brain rot?
Speaker 1:And I thought wow, wow, that's a really, really great term to explain, um, I think, the mindset of many young artists when they go on tiktok and they see this and they see that and they see the patterns and they see the things that are massive this week and might be cold next week, and they kind of go do I follow that? Do I do this over here? Because if I don't fit that algorithm and that funnel and that hashtag and that trend, then where do I fit? And I find myself, you know, in my 40s, going well, you know, you've got to be unique. And then I think to myself that's not very helpful to people, you know.
Speaker 2:No, I agree, but I mean, you know, like you, you know, when I started listening to music and playing music in bands, you, like you, you know, when I started listening to music and playing music in bands, you know we copied what was around. You know, I was into Scar and all our songs, a bit like Madness and those sort of bands, and I think that's healthy, you know. And when you look at social media, I think again, you've got to be yourself and I understand you go through YouTube and everything else and you think why am I different? But what other answer is there? You, you know, do we say we've got to pretend something, we're not to shock? Um, I mean, I, in many areas, I do like I find music a little bit, a little bit stayed in terms of, you know, I grew up with the personalities and the shock value and I enjoyed that. You know, grew up in, you know, punk and that was all crazy. I think the nearest we've got that is probably to that. It's probably something like drill at the moment, which is, you know, it's really good.
Speaker 2:But I do think it is tough because we, as artists, we copy our heroes and we copy the people who are around big at the moment. But I suppose maybe you start off doing that and then, as you grow, you find your own values, your own way to show yourself. I don't think that's something that can be particularly forced, especially this day and age, because we've got nothing to hide ourselves behind. You know, what we see is what we do. So if I say you know, I'm a priest and that's my music, well, people are going to know that. So you've sort of got to be yourself. I'm not sure the answer to that would actually be johnny, because there is so much out there. If you spend your life worrying about copying people or doing it, you won't get anywhere. I think. Just plow your own lane, you know. I think that's the way forward. Otherwise it's it's impossible.
Speaker 1:I would suggest yeah, and, and that's kind of always been the truth, right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Technology can kind of distort our understanding of that subject, but actually it stood the test of time. Okay, let me pose this to you, right? You know, with all the amazing technology we have these days robotism and AI and all these things can you describe? This is such a horrible question. Here we go, here we go.
Speaker 2:Come on, mate, hit me with it.
Speaker 1:Hit me with it. Can you describe the perfect artist? What are the ingredients? Ingredients. So I told you it was a horrible question.
Speaker 2:I don't think there is one. I'm not being evasive. What is the perfect art? You know, especially when music is not about good or bad, or perfection or not. You know it's about I like it or I don't like it, what I like, you won't like, what I do like you won't like, or whatever. You know. So what is a perfect artist? A perfect artist?
Speaker 2:I come back to what I said earlier. Our friend Denise said there's no such thing as a lazy, successful artist. You know. So you've got to work hard, all the things I said right at the beginning. What you know is Taylor Swift the perfect artist, is Stormzy the perfect artist? You know, I don't know, and I think that's a beautiful thing about music. Actually, I always said you know, if we were a hundred metre runner, there's only one Usain Bolt We'll all finish. Second Music there's room for everyone. So perfection is never about perfection. It's about doing your own music the way you want to, the way you're comfortable with, and then people connect into what you do. And I think also, if we, you know, try to be whatever this perfect artist is, we'll ultimately fail. So I'd love to sorry, I'm not being evasive again, no, no no, I genuinely.
Speaker 2:I don't think it matters, and I don't think you need to be, and I don't think there is such, you know is be, and I don't think there is such a. You know, is the the beatles? Were they the perfect artists? Well, maybe, or was it? Is it drake? Is it kendrick? Is it who knows? It's just taste, and that's a lovely thing about music. There's no good, there is no bad. It's just I like it or I don't like it superb answer.
Speaker 1:Superb answer and an honest one and a useful one. Ok, I use the word perfect there on purpose, because there is almost an expectation now, when it comes to kind of song presentation, that everything is perfect, right, you know, kind of putting those drums back on the grid, tuning up those vocals, whatever it might be. There's something now where there's an expectation, where you can't, you know, export a project and send it off to a distributor, a sync agent, whoever, without it being open for no criticism, let's say Right, so is that something that you battle with as a producer and as a mentor to other producers and artists?
Speaker 2:no, you say, I'm not even convinced.
Speaker 2:That's the case, johnny really, oh, okay, no, I I, I'm not, because I mean there are elements of pop, of music. You know. Yes, you're talking about solid pop, yeah, probably. But you listen to a lot of rap where it's one, one beat and the guy doing his thing and the lyrics connect with people. The most basic of beats.
Speaker 2:Is that perfect? No, not necessarily. It's feeling the vibe, it's feeling what you're about. The energy of the music is way above, sometimes, perfection, as it's always been. Actually, you know, um, and I think, because everyone can produce and everyone can do beats, now there probably isn't that perfection as it was. There are certain music that has to be.
Speaker 2:I totally understand in our world, you know where you're presenting songs, as a songwriter, possibly, and I listened to your really interesting podcast about songwriting and presentation and I totally agree. There's some ways you've got to be perfection and other things. It's just about the song or getting the vibe. So actually I think, yeah, I think it's sort of it's up to you. I listen to so much music, new music, and it's literally maybe acoustic guitar recorded quite nicely. You're feeling the vibe, you're feeling the song. So there are elements where it has to be perfect and the elements it doesn't. I'm very much into an act called Ren. I don't know if you've come across Ren, oh yeah, and his journey. I mean if you've seen his first video, hi Ren, where he does a live video of him, and acoustic guitar where he raps and sings. It's a one take. Is that perfection? No, but it's unbelievable, one of the best videos I've seen in the last 10 years I know that that is a brilliant video.
Speaker 1:Actually, I was quite touched by that performance um do a deep dive into him.
Speaker 2:He's an incredible artist there's.
Speaker 1:there's a sense of um uh, relatability, honesty, rawness, 100%. You know that's good. Okay, I like your answer to that.
Speaker 2:That's good, okay, it is but just you know, keep on that track for a second. It is. You know, it's not about perfection. It's a guy with a guitar, like probably Ed Sheeran as well. Ed Sheeran, you know what we hear sometimes. It's well-produced and all that, but you could see him play live. In fact, I had a masterclass here with a guy who booked Ed Sheeran right at the beginning. There he was with him and his guitar Not perfection, but he stood out. Something about his energy and his songwriting and his talent stood out. That wasn't perfection, that was just him doing his thing.
Speaker 1:And I still believe in that. Yeah, that's a very good point. In fact, let's think about let's mc, and actually is an interesting example because, if you think about, one of the signature sort of palettes of his sound is his acoustic guitar, that small, uh acoustic guitar that he uses and when he, when he plays it live, um, it kind of sounds the same way as it does when it's on one of his recordings, or for some of them at least, um and it it certainly doesn't sound, uh, perfect, it sounds um, like ed sheeran. Yeah, yeah, you know it's, it's um, it's kind of a, you know, a signature stroke of his sonic identity. If you will and it would it would be easy to replace that and go let's put like this jumbo 12 string on there and it will sound really beautiful and rich, like a, like a boston record or something.
Speaker 2:But yeah, yeah, that wouldn't be ed sheeran, would it no, absolutely, and that also plays a bit into the whole conversation about ai at the moment. Yes, there'll be people making songs at ai, but do you want to see an ai ed sheeran or do you want the human being? You know, and I suspect, there will be AI Ed Sheerans, but you'll still buy into all the real artists, or the artists who might have AI songs, but there'll be writers and there'll be connect within. So, actually, you know, that rawness and that honesty is going to be tough to be replaced.
Speaker 1:Yeah, very good point. Very good point. Um, ai feels like a can of worms to open, by the way, doesn't it? Everywhere I go, people ask me about it and it's it's. It's such a big subject, you know, right now in the in the mid part of this decade it'll quieten down, you know, um, as things often do at some point or another, but do you have any sort of general yeah, I mean views on it?
Speaker 2:I tell you the one of the things that always compares, and I think this will be on a different level. We both remember when samplers came in and the whole conversation was musicians are stuffed, that's it. No one's going to play bass, no one's going to play, because you'll sample everything and what it ended up as being a tool for songwriters, for artists, and the musicians were still there. And I think AI I think it's more extreme, I think there are going to be issues for songwriters because, genuinely, ai will write hit songs. That's happening, that will happen and I think there's a real worry about that. If I was a record company and I wouldn't care if 10 songwriters wrote the next song or AI, as long as it's a hit, but there would be room for both. So I think this landscape will change dramatically.
Speaker 2:As I said, I think the artists will still be the artists, but I do think the technical side and the songwriting thing. I worry for songwriters actually making a living out of songs Because, as I said, record companies will just get an iBot to do it. I worry for songwriters actually making a living out of songs because, as I said, record companies will just get an AI bot to do it. You know that will happen. It's got to happen.
Speaker 2:They don't care who wrote the song, they just want hits. They're not going to say, oh you, 10 writers are going to write a hit If AI does it. I think there are legal issues and we're going through lots of court cases at the moment. But once that all settles down, I think there are issues and I think that's the more worrying from the creation point of view rather than possibly the live point of view. And let's face it, artists don't I mean sorry, audience don't go over shit generally who writes the songs, they just like the songs, and that's worrying for a new generation of songwriters. Personally, I think that's an issue.
Speaker 1:One of the things I often try to look at are other industries, especially if in the creative industries, and kind of look at them and go, what can music learn from those other creative industries? Which is why I found such interest in the um, the writers guild strikes in america, which you know. There were a few issues attached to that, but predominantly, the primal subject was AI. Right, people using AI to write screenplays Sure, sure, and they stood up to it and they won. And there's now a gaping hole on Netflix in this current era where there's a lot less American productions, but that's okay, they'll come back. They're starting to, yeah, but they stood up for themselves and it worked and there's something we can learn about that too.
Speaker 1:And it is more of a perhaps a moral point rather than technological point, because we've got the technology. It's not ahead of us, it's here now, it's at people's fingertips, but we don't have to use it, right, um, let let me frame this question to you. Right, if you you've, you've written many, many, many songs, right, we've written a lot of songs together, right, um, if you kind of put songwriting into two categories, right, one category being the parts that we create and then the other category being the parts that we detect and we go. Is that actually any good or not? Shall we use it?
Speaker 1:Um, there's an argument to suggest that ai does the first part quite well, but it doesn't really do the second part, because that's the human bit, right? So if you were come up with 20 different ideas and we maybe need I don't know five of them for the song um, then um, and I come up with one. That's how we write songs, right, you get 20 good ideas, I get one, and we call it 50, 50, um, then you can get the other way around, but anyway, yeah, and then, and then we look at it, we go, okay, well, how do we kind of know which ideas that we're going to keep and use?
Speaker 1:and that's a really, really human part of the process, isn't it? I think that we as humans do that second bit, uh, really well, um, and some songwriters are better at that than others. Some, some people are really good at that that aren't even songwriters you know a and r's producers that don't write.
Speaker 2:Maybe do you have any thoughts on that yeah, I mean, I don't think I'd like to think otherwise, but I don't think I'd like to think otherwise, but I don't think the record company cares. I mean, why would they? You know, I mean, as a moral point of view, I want to keep all my songwriters. It's like they want the best song. Now, even if you and I wrote a song and it's good and we think it's good, but did the record companies, you know, I don't know. I think when they have their artists, they want the best songs.
Speaker 2:Now, if it's created by a human or machine, besides the moral point of view and that's massive, obviously I'm not sure if they would care too much. What would you think, johnny? I mean, I know, do you think? I think it's a business? They're a record company, they're a company who produces records. If they say Johnny, lawrence, are in a song, it's really good. Oh, here's AI, and it's a better chorus and more memorable, and it's worked out that it appeals to more demographics and we've tested it in AI that appeals to loads more different sorts of people as well. Then what are they going to use and do they care? That's more the issue.
Speaker 1:Surely we can still write great songs well, they're two very, very interesting questions, but perhaps something which has shifted um in that subject as well is that it's not perhaps as important for us now to be able to go you know, we have to get this, you know, approved by the record company because very often, you know, as you know, we're living in a much more you know approved by the record company because very often, you know, as you know, we're living in a much more kind of artist-centered ecosystem now, and if the artist likes it and their manager likes it, you know, then you know, maybe their distributor or their label or their label services company are not having as much say-so as they perhaps would have done at some point.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and so you know, you know it's. I mean, I can think of a lot of writers right now that are working with a lot of different artists and they'll, you know, and they're really looking for the approval of the artist more than anything else as to whether they're going to end up using that song or whether they're going to end up looking to license it for either for release or for sync use or so. So maybe the the approval there is is has shifted.
Speaker 2:But, mate, do you not think the scary thing is, songwriters will be the middlemen. They won't need us. I'll go to the machine artists, don't worry, the songwriters, let's go and put it into the machine. That, well, I mean, I mean is that, you know, we, we are remember just at the super beginning of this technology. What's it gonna look like in five, ten years? Why would they need songwriters? Actually, I'm that you know, we are remember just at the super beginning of this technology. What's it going to look like in five, ten years? Why would they need songwriters? Actually, I'm being very, you know, sort of extreme maybe, but there's an argument. Why are we paying songwriters? Why are we paying for production, bang, press? I don't know. I mean, that's a dystopian point of view and I know that. But the way it's going, I can't see how.
Speaker 2:Why would they use people? I mean they will, of course they will, but equally again, we talked about a record business it'll cut out any. Maybe they could keep their own royalties. Maybe if, if the tech companies win and it's fair use, then the artists and the manager saying, hey, there we get, we get songs and we keep more the royalties. I don't know, I generally don't know. I'd love to think that you know, as a songwriter for many years, and you and I both, and the love of creating songs, that will probably always happen because we, it's what we do and what we love. But I just wonder where artists or managers will think actually we can, we don't need songwriters. I'll create loads of songs, get an artist who looks great or connects more, and I just wonder. I think we're opening a whole can of worms in terms of where it could go um, and I'm sure there'll be room for all of it, but well, again, very, very interesting questions.
Speaker 1:Um, I mean, let's, you're thinking about the front end use there, right? So how people are using ai let's think about the, the back end use of it right, the ml, the machine learning side of it, right. So if we split that into kind of two categories there are many, but let's, let's look at two. Right number one, what it's learning from. Right, which is the big debate of course yeah industry, right?
Speaker 1:ie copywritten material, uh, copywritten recordings, that's what it's learning from. There's the problem. We know that narrative, but if we just sweep that aside and look at another aspect instead, which is for people to do what you are suggesting, they're going to need the right data sets on an ml level for that ai to kick out the right suggested ideas, because otherwise people are going to go. I've tried, I've tried sueno and it's kind of running out of ideas.
Speaker 1:Or I tried this and it just keeps kicking out the same thing which may happen, but the more it learns from, the more it learns and the more it suggests. Yes, what ideas? Yes, now perhaps. Therefore, there is a gaping hole in the market for ethically sourced uh ai training sets, which are created by humans. So, instead of the artist being in the room, they are creating the data sets that are then chosen by people. So there's. If that happens and it sounds plausible, doesn't it? Then perhaps humans don't actually get replaced, they just change the way they're working. What do you think?
Speaker 2:about that. No, I mean, I think that's again, it's quite plausible. I think you said, you know, it saddens me and I think it saddens you because the idea of two people working in a room and just writing songs and that will, that will happen. But you can see that sort of happening, you know, for people to save money and to create their own things, you know. So I think, listen, in the ideal world the songwriter will be there. The whole human aspect of writing and connecting will always be there. But I'm sure there'll be elements, elements of music, maybe film music, maybe advert music, maybe, you know, soundtracks or whatever where they will think it is cheaper and easier to use the machine. So I think maybe we go back to the sampler analogy, where samplers work alongside musicians, uh, to create something amazing, and I'd love to think with songwriting it'll be the same sort of thing.
Speaker 1:I think there'll be room for both and um and, and we've got to work with it because it ain't going away yeah, do you know, if you think about all the time that you've been involved with music, either as a music creator or on the business end, or whichever side, there's been a series of different topics, subjects that have been raised throughout the decades, which feel at times, at least temporarily, as you mentioned the cassette, the CD, napster downloads, streaming, ai, it's like this. And yet somehow the business not only survives but begins to flourish in new and exciting ways, absolutely, which is great, right.
Speaker 2:But go on, sorry, no, no. I thought, yeah, we can talk, but go on, sorry, no, no. Yeah, we can talk and go on and on all crap like that and it's crap At the end of the day. There's so much exciting talent coming through, the youth coming through with their own spin on music, the way they're doing things or what they talk about. That won't change, whatever technology, whatever usage, ai, samplers, beats, whatever and that excites me. Where I see a 14, 15, 16 year old come in here and you go wow, wow, listen to that beat, listen to that rap, listen to that voice. That is still there and that's hasn't changed. That won't change.
Speaker 2:And actually I suspect there's more people doing music than ever because of technology. You know they don't need super expensive studios, they do it at home. My God, that's amazing. I wish I had that when I was 14 or 15 and trying to save up to go into the studio. You know so actually we can get you know all uptight about all the technology, but the essence of what we do, the essence of the music business, the essence of people coming through and creating livings and creating great songs, will never change. I don't think it'll change because the youth is taking technology, using it, adapting it and making some great music and great content, and that's super exciting. You know, I come back to the 12 year old the other day. I'm watching her grow into. I think it's going to be an incredible artist and that isn't changing. And so I'm ultimately and continue to be absolutely wowed and positive about the music industry because of the talent coming through and the love of music.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a well. It's people like you that make that happen, right, because you have a platform that young people can A learn in. In a building around you get some great guests in on your masterclasses. You have your networking nights, where people talk to people, and, as we all know, that's how things happen. Your networking nights where people talk to people and, as we all know, that's how things happen in this business. When people talk to people. You facilitate all that in addition to all of the creativity. So you are literally practicing what you are preaching when you talk about how passionate you are to see that next generation, that that those 12 year olds, those 14 year olds, we need them to be able to do what they're doing, uh, to continue the legacy that you know there's, there's it's a big, wide world out there and, in many ways, there's little island that we live on. You know we're quite we're quite good at music.
Speaker 2:I think we've had our moments, although funnily enough now it's not one of them. I see you know the decline of british music but the exciting where other countries looking, you know. So afro beats is massive at the moment and brazilian and south american. We're not as big or innovative as we were but you're right, for a little island we do pretty well. And the other thing I was going to say yes for young music it's always great, but for older people, know, I meet people in their 60s, 70s doing music for their first time because they can. That's exciting.
Speaker 2:Music should never be exclusively for the 15, 18-year-olds. You know, talking as an older person, you know I see super talented people who have maybe never given it a go and I think what have you been doing for the last 40 years Incredible, ever given it a go? And I think what you've been doing for the last 40 years, incredible. So the fact that music is open for all, it's not just the young, that's incredibly important and that's what now I want to continue doing here at sappho. You know, with everything that we do and just you know, generally music's an incredible thing and we're both lucky to be part of it absolutely well said.
Speaker 1:I love that you mentioned that there about music being accessible to all age groups, because, as we both know, right, we've worked with a lot of young emerging artists over the years and they were always young, like, we never had an artist sent to us that we go oh, this is whoever, like, he's 42. Yeah, that would have been really odd, right, but you wouldn't. Now. And when we talk about inclusion and how important inclusion is, you know, in life in general and music's always been pretty good for that, and it's getting better and better. But that's not just about different types of demographics, it's also about age groups it's about people going.
Speaker 1:You know that. Hey, you know you're, let's say, right. You're in your 50. It doesn't mean you can't write a hit song. No one has to know who you are, and you know it really does just take one song to change everything forever. I've witnessed it in so many people now and you have too right.
Speaker 2:Well, look at sorry to interrupt you, look at COVID how many people think I can't do much. I want to do music. Wow, you know, realise actually they've got a talent, realise they enjoy, do what they love. There shouldn't be a thing where you stop at 25, 30 and oh, I haven't made it, I give up. You know, you're still good, you still love what you do and music's a passion, you know. So I'm a great believer in wherever you are, whatever age you are and I've come across as you have Older people are super talented. They just have done other things and think, oh my God, I can do this and that's important to champion them as well, absolutely.
Speaker 1:Absolutely right, yeah, and that never used to be any kind of narrative in this business, and it is now, and it should be more. It's nice to shine a light on that. Actually, uh, you're talking to um, so what about the future? Let's finish off with this. Where you know, when I say, I often ask people you know, what does the future look like? Where are we going? Of course, no one knows the answer, right, um, but you know, we can sometimes use a little bit of the past or a little bit of the present to give us an indication as to where things may or may not be headed. Is there anything that leaps to your mind when you think of the future of this business and what it might look like?
Speaker 2:I think. I think it's more the power of the individual, I think, increasingly individuals. Whereas we wanted record deals, they possibly don't want record deals. You know it is. You know we're in. We're in the entrepreneur um age. It's your own business, you make your own money, you do your own gigs, you release your own records. So the future is actually, I think, more about these sort of people. Realize they can make a living from their music, knowing how to do it, utilizing the technology around them and, you know, doing what their passion is. So I think, as far as the artist, I don't think that changes. As I talked about earlier, they're super talented people always coming through. But I think we're we're a generation who probably understand a bit more about how to make money out of music, how to utilize what they've got and utilize this technology. So, from an artist's point of view, again, I'm positive. I think there is lots of possibilities. So I think that will never change.
Speaker 2:The business, of course, is changing, as we've touched upon in terms of AI and you know, I won't say the demise of record companies, but the changing, the way they're having to change, because they're not the leaders anymore, it's the artists who the leaders and the record companies seem to follow. So actually that's probably a real positive thing no more signing stupid deals, because you can keep all the money, you can keep things yourself and keep a small slimline team to do everything you need. So in a way, that's got to be really, really positive. I think it's harder for artists because if you signed a record deal, you've got more of a better chance than doing well many years ago. Now you do it yourself, there are more artists and so I don't think it's competition but, but it's harder just to get out then and and to be seen, um. But I think ultimately, you know, the power of the artist is is getting stronger and stronger, and that's the way it should be. Actually, no more signing stupid deals back in the day, and that's ultimately exciting.
Speaker 2:So I think you know if you're a person going into the industry, you know find out about the industry you're in, find out how you make your money. Find out from hey, listen to your podcast, for goodness sake. There's so much on there, no, but seriously we need to know how many. Find out from hey, listen to your podcast, for goodness sake. There's so much on there, no, but seriously we need to know how many people go in. I had to chat with someone who's late 30s been gigging for ages. Didn't really I had to go through his prs today, you know, because he didn't really know what how that worked. So I think it is important for artists to understand that um, and if that happens, then I think that's it's positive. I'm positive about music. How did it not be? How can I not be?
Speaker 1:yeah, well, you, you're always super positive. That's one of the many, many things that people love about you, and I'm one of those people and I would say that, uh, you know you're talking about the podcast there and I appreciate you listening to it and mentioning it to people and referencing episodes. Well, this podcast just got a whole lot better because you've just been on it.
Speaker 2:Now you'll be telling me Tottenham are a great football team. Come on, mate. Oh, let's not go that far, let's not go down there.
Speaker 1:Thank you for joining me on this mate. You're a top man Absolute pleasure, johnny.
Speaker 2:Thank you, mate, it's good to see you.
Speaker 1:Oh, and it was good to see him too. I do hope you enjoyed that conversation. You'll have to forgive me, by the way, because perhaps at times in that conversation it may have felt maybe a little bit too informal for a sort of podcast interview, but the reality is he and I go back a long way and we get on very well, so I hope that you enjoyed listening to us. We we try to avoid the subject of football, by the way. If he and I get talking about football we'll be there for hours and I wouldn't want to put you through that. Anyway, I hope you learned something. We looked at a lot of subjects, right, inclusion, ai, all sorts of different things, especially around the subject of composition and artist development. Anyway, I will leave that with you there. For now, I wish you a great day and until next time may the force be with you.
