The Music Business Buddy
A podcast that aims to educate and inspire music creators in their quest to achieving their goals by gaining a greater understanding of the business of music. A new episode is released each Wednesday and aims to offer clarity and insight into a range of subjects across the music industry, all through the lens of a music creator for the benefit of other music creators. The series includes soundbites and interviews with guests from all over the world together with commentary and clarity on a range of topics. The podcast is hosted by award winning music industry professional Jonny Amos.
Jonny Amos is a music producer with credits on a range of major and independent labels, a songwriter with chart success in Europe and Asia, a senior lecturer in both music creation and music business at BIMM University UK, director of The SongLab Ltd and the author of The Music Business for Music Creators.
www.jonnyamos.com
The Music Business Buddy
Episode 47: Building Artists as a Brand With PR Specialist Ellie Sorensen
The worlds of music PR and marketing have merged into a seamless ecosystem, where storytelling reigns supreme and strategy is non-negotiable. In this enlightening conversation, PR manager Ellie Sorensen shares her decade of experience helping independent artists navigate this complex landscape.
Ellie pulls back the curtain on how she transitioned from performing artist to PR specialist, revealing the importance of mentorship and persistence in building her career. With impressive credentials working alongside artists like Idlewild, Nova Twins, and Crawlers, she offers a unique perspective on how PR has evolved from traditional press outreach to a multifaceted discipline encompassing playlist pitching, audience analysis, and brand development.
At the heart of Ellie's approach is the understanding that every artist is fundamentally a brand requiring a cohesive story. She expertly unpacks how to identify an artist's unique values and communicate them authentically across all touchpoints – from visuals and press materials to social media content. Most refreshingly, she challenges conventional wisdom about digital presence, sharing examples of artists who've succeeded by stepping away from social platforms to prioritize mental health and more meaningful audience connections.
The conversation takes a particularly illuminating turn when discussing DSP strategy, with Ellie revealing her effective technique for pitching to Spotify playlists. Her methodical approach includes researching suitable playlists, incorporating key marketing terms, and highlighting an artist's existing achievements – essentially doing some of the curator's work for them. She also emphasizes the value of third-party playlists as crucial stepping stones in building streaming momentum.
Whether you're an emerging artist, manager, or music business student, this episode provides practical wisdom about brand audits, audience psychographics, and creating sustainable careers in an oversaturated industry. As Ellie wisely notes, there are no overnight successes – just strategic thinkers playing the long game of authentic artist development.
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The Music Business Buddy. The Music Business Buddy Hello everybody and a very warm welcome to you. You're listening to the Music Business Buddy with me, johnny Amos, podcasting out of Birmingham in England. I'm the author of the book the Music Business for Music Creators, available in hardback, paperback and e-book formats. I'm also a music creator with a variety of credits I'm a consultant, an artist manager and a senior lecturer in both music business and music creation. Wherever you are and whatever you do, consider yourself welcome to this podcast and to a part of the community around it. I'm here to try and educate and inspire music creators from all over the world in their quest. Consider yourself welcome to this podcast and to a part of the community around it. I'm here to try and educate and inspire music creators from all over the world in their quest to achieving their goals by gaining a greater understanding of the business of music.
Speaker 1:Okay, so in today's episode I'm talking to Ellie Sorensen. Ellie is a UK-based PR specialist. In fact, she's far more than just that, but that's the kind of name that most people know her as. So Ellie Sorensen is the PR manager for Crosstown PR and a badge of friendship. She's worked with a diverse range of artists and labels and media music events, including the Duke Spirit, idlewild, the View Big Indie Records and Lab Records. She's also worked with a number of emerging artists, so the likes of Nova Twins, dream Nails, buzzard, buzzard Buzzard and Crawlers, helping them to kind of find their audience and to deliver greater awareness and engagement for their work. Ellie has previously worked at Anorak, london, freeman PR and Groovarium, where she coordinated artists and events such as Foles, sylvie and Esso, nightmares on Wax, the AIM Awards and the Mercury Prize Sessions. Ellie also works as head of digital for flourishing Irish independent label, vita that's V-E-T-A Vita, working predominantly with female and non-binary artists.
Speaker 1:As a strategist, ellie's work covers campaign coordination, social media management, radio plugging, dsp relations, media and artist development. She is somebody that is very impressive. She's been doing this for around 10 years now, maybe a little bit more, and she's so good at what she does. She sees PR as a piece of the marketing puzzle as opposed to a separate entity. She is brilliant at understanding and building an artist's story. So I thought, well, it's about time we heard her story. So here we go with the interview, ellie. Welcome to the Music Business, buddy. It's good to have you here. How are you?
Speaker 2:Thank you so much. I'm very good. Thank here. How are you? Thank you so much. I'm very good. Thank you. How are you?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I can't complain. Thank you, I can't complain. So, Ellie, tell us, how did you get started in the world of music? Pr.
Speaker 2:Well, it was a while ago now, probably getting over 10 years ago, that I started in in PR and, much like you know a lot of the creative industries, I started out interning um and trying to get you know as much kind of work experience under my belt um as humanly possible um, which I started kind of doing in while I was still at university, um studying um perform like performance and vocals at the time. But realising that I had suffered from stage anxiety as a performer, which obviously is very common, but realised that I really loved the music industry and wanted to build a career in that, not really knowing what that would look like. And luckily I had a really amazing one of my lecturers, mel Thornton, who had a background in music PR herself and got me my first kind of bit of work experience, which was for a London-based PR company called Anorak PR, which are no longer running, but they worked with all sorts of artists that I was, you know, a fan of. This was 10 years ago, so in the kind of teeny, teeny decades. So people like Foles and the Maccabees, all these kind of indie bands that I was really into, and that was my first little step into it. And, you know, obviously with PR one of the kind of key skill sets is kind of communication and organization and just from that I kind of just kept persevering.
Speaker 2:You know, few years of my career worked with, uh, freeman pr um, which was based in brixton um, working with people like nightmares on wax and mickey blanco um, but also getting into a bit of event pr with kind of the aim awards um we were doing at the time and I worked with the mercury prize sessions.
Speaker 2:So all of this kind of giving me bits and bobs of experience to build up on my CV. And then eventually got my first paid PR job with a company called A Badge of Friendship, probably about 10 years ago now, and they specialise in kind of working with a lot of kind of independent artists but also artists like Idlewild, duke, spirit and the View, quite a lot of Scottish artists because they were ran by Scottish partners and, yeah, just absolutely loved it and kind of from that point onwards, obviously COVID hit and so that kind of took a bit of a hit, as we all kind of did in this industry. And since then I've been kind of working on a more freelance basis but still very much trying to champion independent grassroots and marginalised artists as much as I can.
Speaker 1:Good for you. Wow, that's very good. I think sometimes it's tough to get a break right, as we all know, in various different aspects of the creative industries, but that's a good way that you did it there, right? You know someone said, hey, you know, I think you'd be good at this and you go ahead and try it and you know, if you're willing to kind of go, okay, I'll start at this level and kind of learn the ropes, and then you know, after a while you're good at it and then people are happy to pay you to do it right now. I suppose that could apply itself to multiple different trades. Um, but uh, it's, it's. It's a good, old-fashioned approach though it's.
Speaker 2:Clearly it works right it is and I know it's. I mean, you know it is is obviously tough out there, and I know it's. You know I sit in a rather maybe more privileged position than some do and I was still. You know, when I was first interning in those early years of my career, I was still just working a retail job on the side of it. You know it was just kind of just to pay the bills. Eventually, you know, those hours at that kind of retail job got smaller and smaller as my hours working in the music industry got more regular and more frequent.
Speaker 2:I was commuting to London from Brighton, you know, at 1.5 days a week, which is also, you know, no mean feat.
Speaker 2:I was much younger then so I had much more energy but and I did enjoy it, you know it was the kind of exciting, you know, kind of lights of London and getting into the industry. But yes, it is tough and I think everyone in this industry really does need a mentor of some description, um, which is exactly what I had to really. I actually multiple mentors and actually a lot of them women, which was in the PR game. There are a lot of leading women in the industry, which I think is also really important as a woman kind of coming up in this game to see, feel, seen and visible. So yeah, I would say it's tough, it's probably even tougher now than it was. Then say it's tough, it's probably even tougher now than it was then. But if you can kind of make those connections and, you know again, networking and um building those relationships internally, it really it really really helps definitely to kind of give you a bit of a, a guide and a push in the right direction yeah, yeah, good point.
Speaker 1:Um, I mean obviously know we're in a business where things change at such an incredibly rapid pace that sometimes it's difficult to keep up with things. Even in the 10 years so that you've been active within this, you know you'll have seen a lot of change, especially kind of even just pre-pandemic to post-pandemic. How have kind of, let's say, music PR and music marketing begun to kind of fuse together in the modern era.
Speaker 2:I think, yeah, I think I mean obviously PRs. I always say kind of part of the marketing wheel. So there is always that kind of crossover. You can't have one with the other. I guess you know, looking at it on a much more macro scale and you're dealing with communication in a variety of ways to help with promotion. Pr is, you know, a part of that. It's part of the kind of earned media kind of area, of the PSO model, whereas marketing obviously focuses more around. You know, you've got paid media and you kind of owned media and shared media.
Speaker 2:Obviously, social media is a massive, important area now which I think with PR there is much more of a crossover than there was 10 years ago, because there wasn't really the social media in the same way there was now. There wasn't even really DSPs in the same way that there is now. Spotify was very much still coming up that time. So I kind of watched that happen in real time and I was working in real time with artists kind of going well, what about playlisting and what about podcasts and what about influencers? And so naturally I think, because of the growth of the digital age, the growth of social media, the growth of kind of how DSPs are kind of working in the industry. Pr just had to kind of step up into that world more and build those kind of bigger connections and senses of community.
Speaker 2:Pr's always, at the, you know, crux of it, been about persuasion and storytelling, and that is obviously absolutely vital for kind of marketing in the creative industries as well. So I feel like, yeah, you kind of you need, you can't have one without the other. I don't. I think and especially now more than ever.
Speaker 1:I really like the way you you put that together, by the way, ellie, because you know, thank you like it kind of, like it almost used to be that they were like two different things, but now they're very much not, are they? You know, especially when you know, traditionally speaking, in fact perhaps even still so this way, so many labels kind of think on a sort of campaign marketing level rather than perhaps a sort of brand marketing level, and that can sometimes, you know, create a kind of seasonal approach to budgeting, and I get why it makes sense, but to a certain extent because then that has to kind of funnel its way into the artist and their story, their connection point with the audience, and you kind of can't really take your foot off the gas on that. You know, I speak to a lot of artist managers about this where they'll say, oh, you know, they're just lecturing their artists. Don't only post when you've got something to sell, post about all sorts of different things, talk to people about what you're up to and that kind of thing.
Speaker 1:And this is one of the many things that you're really good at, right is storytelling, getting an artist's message across. It's a huge part of your work. Could you tell us a little bit about what that looks like. Let's imagine it from an artist that comes to you and says right, I want to get on the festivals and get my streams up and they come to you. What's the kind of thing that you might talk to them about in regards to their story?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So I think storytelling is obviously extremely important, especially when we're in a kind of creative climate. And it's normally my kind of process when I, when I speak to a new artist and kind of coming forward and, you know, maybe looking at kind of PR options, I do, you know, always want to be realistic with them because, as you say, there are so many factors to it that are important when you are a growing artist. And you know also, you know, when you're looking for maybe kind of label and management, they're looking at things that through specific lenses, um, and want to see probably some statistics that are obviously important. But, as you say, the storytelling aspect is is, I think, really really pinnacle.
Speaker 2:I think, you know, an artist, at the end of the day, is a brand and all brands need you know that story. You need to have that kind of base of who you are, what your values are, you know what kind of interests you have beyond just the kind of sound of your music, because I think nowadays there's so much new music out there which is amazing and great, and independent artists are have the access to kind of release music without a label, which is great, but also it means that it's oversaturated. And so now you know, I always ask the artists like what's your, what's the story of this? Like release, you know who is who, who are you kind of aiming it for? Who's your audience or who, or where do you think you currently stand in this market? What makes you unique? It's that old, classic buzzword of the USP. But I think it is more important than ever now to see that kind of story and the values of the artists being pushed through.
Speaker 2:Not just the music, but the visuals, the videos, the press shots, just the music, but you know, the visuals, the videos, the press shots, the artwork all of it needs to be kind of telling you know the same story and building the brand and you know, making sure that their values and their reputation of how they want to be seen, but also how the public perceives them, are well in place. So, yeah, I think it's really important to me when I'm working with an artist to make sure that they have that branding already in mind. And when we talk about branding, it's not just about the visuals, it's about what's underneath, it's about you know what's really internal to them as well. So sometimes it's you know.
Speaker 2:I ask you know, describe yourself in five words, you know what are your influences outside of music, because all of it's um, all of it's kind of important when it comes to building a brand and building a story. So, um, yes. So I think definitely you need to ask the right questions, but the bat, the brand, the artists themselves need to have a good understanding of, of what makes them unique and how they can communicate with, with like-minded um people for sure.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a. That's a very, very good point. Do you know? A few weeks ago, ellie, I was um interviewing a lovely lady from america called mimi kamara.
Speaker 1:She was a guest on the podcast and she's a um, a music uh attorney, and she was talking about some of the negotiations that she does for different artists, and she said that you know, one of the things that has changed significantly for her in recent years well, there's a few things, but two things that kind of link to this was one was the amount of artists that she's kind of, you know, getting deals directly with distributors for, rather than labels, um, and the other aspect was was the storytelling. So she was doing deals for them, not just for their music, uh, but also for their youtube channels, uh, for their, their cookery platform or their merch label or whatever it might be, um, and which falls in line with what you're saying there. But I think the difficulty can sometimes be, perhaps, for music creators is that they'll often say well, music is the thing, that is the way that I connect to people and that is the way that I tell my story, and I don't really have anything outside of that because I'm ploughing everything I've got into it, which I totally get. I've had a lot of artists say that to me. They go I don't have a channel that does this or do.
Speaker 1:I don't want to have to be silly on I don't know TikTok or I'm not funny or whatever it might be silly on. I don't know TikTok or I'm not funny or whatever it might be. So there's like there's just that's a difficult one, isn't it?
Speaker 2:yeah, absolutely, and I completely understand. You know so many artists. You know social media. It's that kind of dread of the kind of yeah, you know TikTok and Instagram and just content, um, content, content, content, um.
Speaker 2:I think you know, as a kind of just kind of online community. We're, all you know, I think, are just a bit kind of fatigued by it, and I understand that artists are as well, which is why, you know, I always say to them like you need to prioritize, obviously, your mental health, but also you know what social media are your audience on? Where are they, how and if, and how do you, how are you going to communicate with them if you don't want to be funny and have that kind of sense of humor, um, or it doesn't work, it just it has to work with your brand. So that is kind of the questions you need to ask. You can still use social media to educate, to inform, inform, you know, entertain, to communicate. That's why a lot of artists, obviously, things like doing kind of covers and these kind of trends always tend to work quite well for them. But I also think there's a massive value in you know, kind of mailing lists and other kind of forms of kind of media that artists can still communicate with their fans with, but, you know, in a much more kind of um condensed way.
Speaker 2:And I'm interestingly working with an artist at the moment, um called freddie lewis, who um has recently decided to um cut out all social media. Um kind of in terms of they've got, you know, decent followings on both instagram and tiktok, um and just have decided that, yeah, for kind of mental health reasons, amongst others, I don't want to do this. They've got um a sub stack and a mailing list that they still communicate with their fans on um and, interestingly, he just released a single a couple of weeks ago. May I have this Dance and it's been put on about five editorial Spotify playlists now, I think, including things like Our Generation, which is a really big one for kind of emerging artists, and that's a bit without him doing any social media promotion. I've been doing the PR, but that's it.
Speaker 2:So it's interesting that you know. I feel like we've always been feeling like we need to be promoting and obviously we do but maybe there's grounds for other avenues we can do this that aren't maybe the traditional ways that we're kind of seeing in this digital age anymore.
Speaker 1:Interesting. Ok, so thank you for bringing in that example of that artist that you're working with there. What was the artist's name? Freddie.
Speaker 2:Freddie Lewis.
Speaker 1:Freddie Lewis OK.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Bristol-based indie soul pop artist Really great. Definitely worth checking out.
Speaker 1:Well, good on Freddie, it's a bold move. It is. I know you know many people that you know perhaps in his team will be going. What are you doing? Come on, you've got to get on there. But actually you know it takes courage to do that and actually you know, with someone like you, actually you know it takes courage to to do that and actually you know with someone like you, you know in his corner, um, and you know doing, you know your dsp pitches and stuff is going to help because all of a sudden, if, if we're and we'll come back to that in a second, by the way, because I love how you do dsp pitching but, um, but like, let's say, for example, an artist like freddie, there, you know it can be.
Speaker 1:You know that sort of if you're not careful, that demoralizing brain rot of kind of posting, posting, posting, posting. Why isn't this getting anywhere? And then boom over here, all of a sudden, the right kind of editorial and subsequently, you know algorithmic, uh, you know sort of intervention and following builds up. You then use that data to go hey, do you know what? We can go and talk to this booking agent over here. We'll get you in front of real people instead of being behind the glass. I make it all sound very plausible, but I see things like that for a lot of people, and it's all about strategy, isn't it?
Speaker 2:absolutely, yes, I think you know there's always a strategy behind any kind of campaign, um, for an artist, I think you know. Again, going back to social media, people think that people are just kind of throwing stuff at it and seeing what sticks, but actually there is always a strategy, especially, you know, if you look at these bigger artists and what they do. I use Charli XCX's Brat campaign a lot because I think it's an amazing example of a brilliant marketing campaign. But what she does, quite obviously, if you look through her social media, is follow the Ada model of marketing where she's grabbing attention with the big announcement and then dropping interest and desire, going all the way through to the call to action multiple times.
Speaker 2:Really, and if you look at most album campaigns of any artist, there is some form of that going on on their social media and there will be a team behind that making all these very specific strategies to actually make them not look like they are specific strategies because you want the chaos. But also, yes, absolutely, there's always got to be a strategy in there, you know, from going down to you know release dates, for you know, for an EP or an album You're probably going to do some sort of waterfall release and that that needs, that needs kind of planning and thinking about. And also, you know again, when you're kind of reaching out to your audience and probably multiple segments of an audience and you know kind of thinking about how to reach them in different capacities that feel authentic and organic. And I think that's the other key thing about building a brand of an artist is it really needs to be authentic to them, otherwise it just won't work.
Speaker 1:Yeah, good point. Yeah, do you know one of the areas of your work, ellie, that I found most fascinating? Well, many areas, but one in particular was the fact that you do DSP pitching, because a few years ago I never used to hear kind of you'd hear like different people in different roles, people at labels, people at managers, artists directly pitching for playlists, and that's good and they still do and they should. But to have you, you know, a music pr specialist, marketing specialist, that gets involved with that, I love it right, because you're really good at it.
Speaker 1:So let's split this into two categories, right? So pitching directly to spotify through the spotify artists set up, and then pitching third party playlists. Ellie, you and I have talked a little bit before about your approach to how you pitch directly to Spotify and I can tell you it's identical to how I know a lot of you know well respected A&Rs do it right. It's almost identical. In fact, it is identical to the way that you do it. Could you tell us a little bit about the pitch directed to spotify for playlists and how that differs to your third party pitches?
Speaker 2:absolutely yes. So I think yes, obviously, as um. I'm sure you know kind of most um artists and kind of people in the industry know spotify has spotify for artists, which is kind of their backend of Spotify, which gives you lots of great analytics as well as that kind of um pitching platform, um, that you go through, um and and I think you know again, talking back to when I first was coming through the industry and this was starting to happen, I remember artists coming to me and saying you know, are you pitching to Spotify? And it kind of became a thing of being like, oh, should we? And I think it kind of became this kind of area because obviously you are essentially doing what you would as a PR normally. You're pitching to, you know, playlist curators. The same way you pitch to to journalists, really and you know, and kind of producers in that sense, um, for radio, um, so it just naturally kind of fell into a kind of music PR ballpark and, um, I think obviously distributors also have a have a kind of hand in that. But for me, yeah, with Spotify for artists, I remember back in the day when you could actually speak to people at spotify in irl, um, I got some really good, obviously, advice from them about how, how best to pitch and what they're looking for.
Speaker 2:And I think that's still very much the situation now, although obviously you have to go directly through spotify for artists. That is the only way they will accept pitches, um, but obviously you know it's a very small. I think it's about 500 characters, not even 500 words or something like that. I can't quite remember now, off the top of my head it's a very small amount of characters you have to include in this pitch and it is essentially more of a marketing pitch, I would say. I know in they actually kind of the way they frame it, I think they ask kind of what's the, what's the release about? And I think that is what can throw off a lot of artists if they're doing it themselves, because you kind of go into it as you, as you would expect, to talking about the story, um, and the creation, and you know the kind of story of you as an artist, which is definitely important.
Speaker 2:But when you've got such a small word count, it's also really important to get that marketing jargon, seo, keywords that are going to. You know. Again, it's all kind of going through these funnels and algorithms. Now you want to get the buzzwords in that are hopefully going to mean that you're going to the right people, that are hopefully going to mean that you're going to the right people and they want to know you know who are you working with, what producers, what managers, what labels. They want to know what press you or radio you either have already got for you know confirmed, or what you've had in the past. They want to know that you know what you've got coming up. They want to know if you're touring or if you've, you know, supported any big names. All of these things are important.
Speaker 2:Um, and I think the final kind of thing that I know that we've talked about um as well is really important to include is some examples of playlists that you think would be suitable for this artist. And again, it kind of shows spotify, the kind of you know little little gods that work in the systems, that you've done your research and you know where you fit in their platform and you know where your audience is, and I think that's really important because you're kind of doing a little bit of the work hard lifting for them and then hopefully again, there's no guarantees, but you've got to remember that Spotify playlists aren't just about genre, it's about mood, it's about location. I work with a lot of Irish artists. There's a great Spotify playlist called A Breath of Fresh Air, so things like that making sure that you've really targeted your pitch and given them kind of suggestions that shows that you've you've done your research and I think, again, there's no proven formula.
Speaker 2:But, as you say, I think what I try to include is what I know, that kind of the curators of spotify and other dsps. Obviously, spotify for artists is just, I think, very easily accessible for independent artists, more so than um, say, apple is um, but amazon has amazon music for artists works in a similar way. Deezer has their own deezer for creators. That works in the same way. Um, so yeah, there's and they're all asking for similar, similar things. So I think, yeah, again, having an understanding of your brand keywords, um, and doing your, doing your target research is really, really, really really important.
Speaker 1:Yeah, very, very good, but I think it's such a um, such an that is such a major insight for independent curators, uh, independent artists, right, that can kind of pitch to those curators because they might not realize that those things all get read. You know, yeah, and I used to wonder that myself until I did a bit of further research, uh, into that area for, uh, for my book, and I realized that, all right, no, no, they get red, they get red and um, and what's, what's interesting as well, is that you're actually, you're actually naming the playlists in there and, by the way, you, ellie, have a really good record at this right of, like you know, getting people onto editorial playlists, like you're wicked at it, like you're so good at it, and so, like you know, um, you are helping those playlist curators to do, you are doing some of the lifting for them. It's rather like an artist or a songwriter you know, pitching a song to a music publisher. It's like which pitch is going to do better, the one that doesn't say anything about what they could do with the music or the one that says, hey, this is the kind of tv spot that this could work with, because it's this kind of mood over here, like which one of them's are you going to yield a response and which one is going to yield a result? Like it's obvious, isn't it when we think about it?
Speaker 1:But there's another aspect to it, which is where artists actually go. Hmm, what playlists am I good, a good fit for? You know, I'm in a rock band, but we kind of like doing some synthy stuff. Oh, what about rocktronic? Oh, perfect, yeah, I'd never knew about that. Well, why would you know about that if you hadn't researched it? You know, I mean so, yeah, again, strategy. But you, you know, again, you're doing the heavy lifting for the playlist curators. You're doing the heavy lifting for the artists by intervening and helping with that.
Speaker 1:So actually working with someone like you could actually be just as important as the person that produced the record. Right, because it's like you know, that's one element. This is another element this you've got blogs over here. You're getting your web presence that's going to be harvested by spotify for nlp and all this other kind of stuff, and then you're going okay, this is where it actually fits, I'm going to put that on here and let's see if we can actually get it on there. Oh, we have. Okay, it works. That's yeah, that's brilliant. I love it. What about the third party playlist? Because they're hugely influential some of those as well, aren't they?
Speaker 2:absolutely. Yeah, I think third-party playlists are really important, especially for kind of again emerging grassroots kind of artists, because, much like pr in the traditional sense, it's all about building blocks. You know you aren't going to get necessarily that guardian enemy kind of you know kind of review straight off the bat if there's no one's been talking about you. And it goes the same for playlists. You need to get those kind of smaller, more like a lot of them, you know very influential tastemakers on side to then hopefully, you know again, build up, build up your stats but also build up your kind of audience and reaching new audiences as well. Um, obviously a lot of um kind of on like music magazines and um, even kind of radio shows and tastemakers have their own playlists. So it's really a great starting point for an artist to kind of go, hey, would you put me on? You know, would you be up for putting me on your playlist? Because it's quite an easy win for people.
Speaker 2:In a lot of senses, and I think there are especially on Spotify, there are a lot of really really massive independent playlists and third-party playlists and there are lots of ways that you can reach out to them.
Speaker 2:Some of them may literally have an email address within their kind of about section.
Speaker 2:Some of them will probably have some sort of social media that you can um, hopefully either kind of try and um contact at least them for an email address.
Speaker 2:Perhaps I would always say, don't, you know, don't pitch in a dm. It's always a big no-no in pr and definitely still goes for playlisting as well, um, but I think it's really important and I think you know, obviously spotify also has a lot of personalized playlists, a lot of kind of you know, these release radars and these, these independent playlists, can really up your, up your plays and up your exposure um to then, and normally what obviously happens is the kind of spotify curators will probably notice a growth in in your music and your audience and if that is kind of growing organically through a lot of these independent and third-party playlists, they're more likely to put you on to editorial playlists because they're going well. Okay, clearly, this this is this is doing well and we should be, we should be kind of supporting it. So definitely goes hand in hand. I know we've talked about a lot of platforms that kind of do kind of playlist pitching for you, um, and there's a few.
Speaker 2:You know a lot out there. I think you've always got to be careful with these kind of places, but I think some of them I mean I've worked I know submit hub very well jason who runs it from indie shuffle, so he was kind of a massive blog um curator back in the day and he's kind of created this platform that, yeah, it gives you know people the opportunity to pitch to multiple playlists. I think, again, you still need to do your research, you still need to go through these playlists, you still need to check okay, is my music gonna gonna fit on here? Listen to the first kind of five tracks, um, and think, okay, yeah, do I fit in here? Um, because you're just kind of wasting your own time and money if you're pitching to the wrong people, much like in a traditional pr sense, it's, it's all it's very similar that's.
Speaker 1:That's a good boy. I I think that he has done a brilliant job over the years as well at submit hub jack, because, yeah, amazing, you know like it's just got better and better and better. And again, you know, we talk about, like you know, sometimes when a lot of people talk about like an artist-centered ecosystem, and it's brilliant, we love it. It's the one thing we've always wanted in this industry. But there's the evidence of it is here in as much as that. We have artists and labels that have the same tools. You mentioned a spotify for artists, access to curators earlier for that editorial pitch. There's one right that labels and artists are both using submit hub, groover, you know, muso soup. These are all platforms that artists and labels are both using.
Speaker 1:But I think what works even better is when you know what you're selling. So I know, for example, because I do trial runs on them just to kind of keep my toes in with various things. So my knowledge isn't going out of date or anything. Submithub, now, it really is, it on. So, so, so quickly, otherwise doesn't it. But I've noticed that on submit hub that you know, the genre match thing is actually really, really, really successful. Um, it doesn't work if you don't know what you're selling, right. If you don't know what genre you are, you know, am I indie rock? Am I alt indie? Am I whatever there's? There's a little bit of subjectivity to that kind of stuff. But if you don't know what you're selling, it's hard. But if you do, the platform's really working for you because your genre match will go higher the higher the number you know. You've got a nine ratio match on this. We think you should pitch this based upon what you've told us. Your music is.
Speaker 2:That's brilliant yeah, I mean absolutely, it's that gives a major advantage.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think you're right.
Speaker 2:I think you know it is hard sometimes for artists to give genre-fy themselves, especially when you've got so many sub-genres on sub-genres, on sub-genres nowadays.
Speaker 2:And so, again, I think, having you know a publicist or a manager, or you know just some kind of external voice, even your producer, to be fair, you know, you just some kind of external voice, even your producer, to be fair, you know you kind of need to ask a few people and kind of go, ok, what, what genre do you think I fit in, or at least this song, because obviously artists can change genres all the time. That's not to do with your brand, but it's, yes, it's really important to know the kind of the kind of nitty gritty specifics of of what your music is sounding like and who that, who it's for, because otherwise you are just kind of, you know, just throwing it to the wind and and seeing what happens it's, it's just not gonna, it's not gonna work and it's just you're just wasting, wasting your own time and wasting your own money. So I think, yeah, again, being as as specific, um, and targeted as possible is really pivotal for all of these kind of pitching platforms.
Speaker 1:Yeah, totally yeah, no matter what the level. Definitely, many emerging music creators look to try and build a career by establishing, you know, a core audience.
Speaker 2:Now, for any artists that struggle with that idea, I've seen you and you and your, your, your colleague, I, I can't remember so yeah, jt leon is a colleague I work with um, with uh, crosstown pr, which is a subsidiary of crosstown concerts um here in bristol, but they are a promoter across all of the uk um, and we kind of specialize in you kind of digital um pr and marketing um, again for more kind of the kind of more emerging kind of level artists um, that we work with um and jt um, yeah, is amazing and very much specializes in the kind of much more of the kind of general digital marketing world, and something that they do for our artists, when we're kind of speaking about working with potential artists, is get together a wonderful brand audit, and this is one I showed you an example a few weeks ago of yeah brand audit.
Speaker 1:That's it. I can't remember the term.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah yeah, it's great and I think you, what they do so brilliantly is, you know, through a number of kind of platforms, whether it be kind of the artists own analytics. But also, you know, we have platforms like Chartmetric which are brilliant of gathering kind of data and giving us a good kind of brand analysis and audience analysis of artists. And what JT does so brilliantly is, yeah, kind of gather all this information about a brand, breaking it down into, you know, your different audience segments of your kind of geographics, demographics, but also quite probably the most important two of things like your psychographics and your behaviors of an audience, and it's looking at, you know, not just again about maybe their musical interests, but maybe. So, samantha Lindo, for example, we're working on her album. It's all about motherhood and ancestry and ethnicity, and she's also, you know, a quite fashionable lady. We had some very beautiful press shots to work with and so you know we look into other psychographics of kind of what brands would be affiliated with Sam.
Speaker 2:She is an independent artist.
Speaker 2:She's, you know, also a very kind of an activist in kind of climate change and kind of, you know, kind of more kind of left standing politics.
Speaker 2:So we took all of these elements of her brand into account and JT put together this audit of kind of looking at different you know companies and other brands that would be like-minded in what she was, what her values and beliefs were, and it just gives us as marketers and a really good kind of idea of where we think she's going to sit in the market, but also it kind of gives her a kind of a better understanding of where she sits, which I think artists really can struggle with sometimes because they're looking at it from such an internal perspective and it's, you know, it's their babies, it's their kind of you know, their life's work a lot of times. So, you know, you want to make sure that you're reaching the right people and I think what JT does so brilliantly is really kind of targets down to really key kind of segments of kind of where their audience is and where we need to put them.
Speaker 1:Brilliant, so to simplify that. Brilliant, so to simplify that. So what we're talking about is taking an act and then going right. These are the kind of things that the fans of that act like, and these are the kind of things over here that they don't like. So fans of this band over here, I don't know drink Coca-Cola and eat hamburgers, but what they don't like over there are smoothies and, I don't know, vegan sandwiches, for example. Right, I mean, I'm picking an odd example there, but that's what we're talking about, right yeah, absolutely, and yes.
Speaker 2:So, for example, with sam, you know we knew that she was going to be more likely, um to release music and you, you know, via platforms like Bandcamp, for example, or, you know, maybe using, you know, more kind of ethically positive kind of platforms like Etsy, for example, even though it's not necessarily directly related to music, their values are the same. And again, when we're going, back to branding.
Speaker 2:It's about your values, um, and your beliefs, and if they line up so when you're. That's why, you know, a lot of artists get into kind of hot water when they partner up with brands that maybe aren't affiliated with what they believe in. Stormzy and mcdonald's recently, you know, had a huge backlash because he's not, it's not really kind of in line with with his brand, um, to kind of affiliate with with something that massive of a uh kind of you know chain that is mcdonald's. So even in those early stages of your career, you you can't. Yeah, it's really important to think about okay, what, what do I believe in, what brands would I want to be affiliated with, and how does that affect my audience and how I speak to them?
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a good one. I think that's a really, really great way for an artist that doesn't really understand their audience yet to be able to understand it, because I know it might be other marketers will. Go well, you know you need to look at streaming data and analyse that, and I would argue with that and say, well, yeah, but what if the right audience has not been found yet through streaming? And actually, what about if, instead of trying to build the understanding of who the audience is, you do it through a process of selection, of going well, it's definitely not people like that or that or that, because they're not really into what I do?
Speaker 1:And then asks a deeper question, right, which is this, which is how similar is the artist to their fans? If, for example, they are like, um, you know, an artist that kind of has a very, very similar fan. You know I'm an artist that my fans are like me, therefore, the things that we like are going to be similar. Brilliant, we can get on board with that and we can start to map out that brand analysis thing and it'll work. But what if, maybe, just maybe, the artist is actually different from their fans and their personal values and traits and their own kind of psychographic information is actually not in a line with their fan base. That's okay, but they're going to need to know about it, aren't they?
Speaker 2:yeah, yeah, exactly, obviously, yeah, it's, you know it's. It's such a spectrum of people's psychographics that they're not always going to align, but I think it's. And also, obviously, a lot of brands want to reach new audiences. That's how we grow. It's a business at the end of the day. And it's same with artists. You know they're going to be able to kind of communicate and connect with their. You know what we call super fans pretty easily because they're going to be there, they're already listening. We don't need to win them over.
Speaker 2:But when we're looking to engage new fans and reach new audiences, who may be yeah, there is some crossover of values and beliefs, but not always entirely. We need to find a way of speaking to them. Or, you know again, kind of partnering with other brands that are almost work as a kind of middle, middle kind of communicator to get to that audience. So, yeah, I think that it's absolutely fine not to always completely align with your audience, but you need to understand why that is and you know what is your kind of intention, what is your objective here. Just again, you know kind of you need to be targeted, we need to be, we need to strategise. It's just kind of always boils down to that essentially.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, makes a lot of sense. Thanks, ellie. You're ace you are. You're such a good insight into things. Final question for you, ellie.
Speaker 2:What changes do you see ahead in the music industry? Well, I think you know we're obviously in a bit of a tumultuous time for the creative industries in general. I think, just in the kind of current climate we're in, and it is tough. I think I heard the other day I think it's a song gets submitted every second or something now on Spotify or something mental. So, yeah, it's, it's. I think we're oversaturated more than ever. But also, I think emerging artists, independent artists, are struggling more than ever, mainly for financial reasons. We don't, you know, get the kind of the kind of support maybe for the arts from our government that we, that we should at the moment. So I think, again, you know it's in marketing and kind of my world we're always we're looking at ways to kind of make it um kind of accessible. Um, and you know, like I said, I've it's already moved from 10 years ago where I was dealing with very traditional pr of you know, print press, um, some music blogs, but that was kind of it and then radio obviously as well. Um, nowadays it's much more about playlisting, even, you know, getting artists um kind of on podcasts, because again, it gives them a chance to talk about themselves and their brand, rather it just being about the music and getting the full kind of story. Um, same goes for, you know, kind of influencers, and not talking necessarily about the big macro influencers that we kind of see all the time, but also much more of the kind of nano influencers that, again, are really kind of important to targeting kind of specific audiences. So I think you know, obviously, we are in a very digital age, we need to be online and we need to be aware of that. But I also, and you know, obviously, things platforms like TikTok are doing very well um for kind of giving um brands and musicians, these platforms. But also you know, obviously, that all this kind of short form content, I think, is it can get quite tiring for people not just creating it but for watching it.
Speaker 2:So I think it's more important than ever for us to think again about the kind of story and the strategy and kind of building that from a very early stage of people's career. And I think people still think that these overnight successes are overnight successes, but they're just. These overnight successes are overnight successes, but they're just. They're not in pretty much all the cases. You know even people like Charli XCX and Ray. You know, all these artists that have actually been around for years are only now kind of getting their flowers.
Speaker 2:So I think for artists coming up in this time, there needs to be an awareness of that and an understanding that you know, just because you haven't got all the numbers or you haven't, you know, got all the stats, or even you know all the press or whatever it is, doesn't mean it's not working. You just need to give it time and I think as marketers, um, we are aware of that. It's the long game, you know it's. It's not the short game and that's why, when we're thinking about these strategies and doing these campaigns, it's long term, it's not short term, and that's kind of the way I think the industry, we need to start kind of thinking about it much more deeply in that and looking at the values of the brand and, and you know again, being creative.
Speaker 2:My favorite part of my job is when I can kind of think about creative pitches to, you know, editors or you know influencers or whoever it might be, to create something fun and exciting that isn't just the normal, traditional kind of route of um. You know, okay, single single album, interview, review, you know all the kind of the usual stuff. I think it's more important than ever to think outside the box and and be creative and, um, you know, build a kind of audience that kind of trusts you and values you and take them, take them on the journey. Take them on the journey with with you. That's how it builds and how it works.
Speaker 1:Absolutely right. You know it's not just the music creators that are the creators in the modern music industry, it's the publicists, the marketeers, the videographers. You know there's just Absolutely Marketing is. Now you could argue it's always been a creative job. You could also argue that somewhere along the line in the 2000s it stopped becoming a little creative and it became very, very kind of data driven look at data and build inferences. And I think now it's kind of gone the other way again, where it's a very, very hands-on, creative job that um create. That needs and requires a lot of lateral thinking and out-of-the-box thinking and also collaboration. Right, some of the best things happen when you talk to artists and they listen to you and you listen to them and you work together and it yields a result. And it's very difficult, if not impossible, to do that on our own. So you know that's where useful people like you come in, ellie I try, I try thank you so much for joining me here today.
Speaker 1:Um, I I dare say, uh, that, uh, the listeners will have gained an awful lot from listening to you. Um, and so can you. Can you be easily found and, and, and, and booked, etc. By, by, by people, and so how should they reach out to you?
Speaker 2:I absolutely can. So I mean, you can find me. My name's Ellie Sorensen, which is with an E-N at the end. It's the Danish spelling, which I think catches people out. But that's where you can find me on all kind of forms of social media LinkedIn, instagram but also welcome to email me at Ellie E-double-L-I-E at CrosstownPRcom Always happy to have a chat, even if it's just, you know, wanting. You know, bits of advice, not necessarily ready. You know a lot of artists aren't ready for a PR campaign straight off the bat, so I'm always happy to give advice and, you know, help in any way that I can to give advice and you know help in any way that I can.
Speaker 1:Good for you. Yeah, oh, that's lovely. Ok, ellie, thank you so much. You're ace, you are, you really, are I really?
Speaker 2:appreciate it. I always learn cool stuff you know from listening to you.
Speaker 1:You're brilliant. Ok, well, I will talk to you again soon. Thank you for being here today. It's much appreciated.
Speaker 2:Oh, my pleasure, Ah, for being here today. It's much appreciated.
Speaker 1:Oh, my pleasure. Ah, there you go, the great, kind, wonderful and wise Ellie Sorensen. It was lovely to hear her views, to hear her insight, the way that she approaches things, the way that she does things. I hope you found some use in her wisdom. Okay, that's enough from me today. Enjoy your day, and may the force be with you.
