The Music Business Buddy
A podcast that aims to educate and inspire music creators in their quest to achieving their goals by gaining a greater understanding of the business of music. A new episode is released each Wednesday and aims to offer clarity and insight into a range of subjects across the music industry. The series includes soundbites and interviews with guests from all over the world together with commentary and clarity on a range of topics. The podcast is hosted by award winning music industry professional Jonny Amos.
Jonny Amos is the author of The Music Business for Music Creators (Routledge/ Focal Press, 2024). He is also a music producer with credits on a range of major and independent labels, a songwriter with chart success in Europe and Asia, a senior lecturer at BIMM University UK, a music industry consultant and an artist manager.
www.jonnyamos.com
The Music Business Buddy
Episode 61: Beat Matching to Business Success - Amani Roberts on Music Entrepreneurship
What does it truly mean to be entrepreneurial in today's music landscape? According to Amani Roberts—international keynote speaker, global performer, award-winning professor, and bestselling author—it's about more than just technical skills.
During our fascinating conversation, Amani breaks down how music professions have evolved through technological advancements. While anyone can learn basic beat matching, he emphasizes that "the art of reading a crowd is something that you acquire over time and you can't rush that." This wisdom extends beyond DJing to virtually any creative pursuit—technical proficiency might come quickly, but mastery requires patience and experience.
We dive deep into Amani's book "The Quiet Storm," where he investigates the mysterious disappearance of R&B groups in the past two decades. Through meticulous research, he identified five critical factors: hip-hop going mainstream, the rise of EDM, cultural shifts in radio, the decline of African-American media publications, and the cancellation of television shows that showcased R&B talent. It's a fascinating exploration of how industry shifts and regulatory changes can fundamentally alter musical landscapes.
For emerging music creators, Amani offers gold-standard advice that challenges conventional wisdom. Rather than chasing millions of followers, he advocates building a foundation of "1,000 true fans" who will consistently support your work. Most critically, he warns against building careers exclusively on social platforms: "You don't want to build your house on rented real estate." Instead, prioritise collecting data to establish direct relationships with fans that aren't vulnerable to algorithm changes or platform instability.
Whether you're a DJ, producer, songwriter, or music business student, this episode delivers profound insights from someone who has successfully navigated multiple facets of the industry. Get ready for a masterclass in music entrepreneurship that will transform how you approach your creative career.
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Hello everybody and a very warm welcome to you. You're listening to the Music Business Buddy with me, jonny Amos, podcasting out of Birmingham in England. I'm the author of the book the Music Business for Music Creators, available in hardback, paperback, ebook format. I'm a music creator with a variety of credits I'm a consultant, an artist manager and a senior lecturer in both music creation and music business. Whatever you do, wherever you are, consider yourself welcome to this podcast and to a part of the community around it. I'm here to try and educate and inspire music creators from all over the world in their quest to achieving their goals by gaining a greater understanding of the business of music.
Speaker 1:Okay, so in this week's episode I am interviewing Amani Roberts. Amani is an international keynote speaker and global performer. He's also a renowned DJ entrepreneur and award-winning professor and USA Today's best-selling author of the Quiet Storm and his other book DJs Mean Business. With over 30 years in hospitality and 17 years in the music industry, he's worked with some big global brands. A very sought-after speaker and co-host of the podcast Adventures in Business, amani inspires music professionals to unlock creativity, take risk and increase their business knowledge. His expertise has been featured in Forbes magazine, people magazine, nbc and Yahoo Finance. Ok, enough from me. Over to the interview. Take note everybody and enjoy what Amani has to say. Me Over to the interview. Take note everybody and enjoy what Amani has to say. So, amani, welcome to the music business buddy. It's really really good to have you here. It's nice to meet you. First and foremost, how are you? I'm doing well.
Speaker 2:Thank you very much for having me, Johnny, and I'm excited to chat with you.
Speaker 1:Ah, good man, Glad you're here. Well, you know, there's just there's so many strings to your bow, right, there's so many things. I don't know if you use that term in the US. It's a term we use here a lot in Britain. You know having many strings to your bow. So you know you're a performer, you're an award-winning professor, an entrepreneur, a public speaker, an author. You're also a DJ and a champion for other DJs. Let's start by talking about that role. What does it mean to you to be a DJ and how has it evolved for you in the years?
Speaker 2:Well, being a DJ that means I'm allowed to kind of activate people and speak to people through music. So that's exciting. And you know, sometimes you could be the life of the party, but sometimes you're just in the background. So you have to know your role. And you know, sometimes you could be the life of the party, but sometimes you're just in the background. So you have to know your role. And so DJing is a very sacred industry. It's a very sacred talent. So I accept the responsibility to keep it that way but also keep it open so new people can learn. And yes, that's kind of how I answer that question. And the second part of your question was just what was the second part of your question?
Speaker 1:Kind of how it's evolved really, I suppose since you first started. Yeah, so I started you know 18 years ago.
Speaker 2:So it's very different now. I would say the barrier to entry is very, very low, so anyone can at least learn how to be a DJ. But what I tell everyone, including some of my students, is that you can learn the basics about beat matching, maybe even scratching, doing stuff like that. But the art of reading a crowd is something that you acquire over time and you can't rush that. So it's evolved where there's a low barrier to entry. But in order to be able to read the crowd and move a crowd and be able to test and sample and figure out what works, that happens over time through trying things, having them work, having them not work, failing, but continuing to keep trying yeah, that's a good.
Speaker 1:That's a good point. Yeah, do you know, um, amani, I've been reading all about you, you know, over the last couple of days and, um, I saw one of the many things about you was was was about something you mentioned then, actually, which is about scratching. Um, that's an art form that's always kind of intrigued me, especially the hand-eye coordination of it, because if you don't have a visual representation of where a piece of audio is on a record and you're using vinyl, for example, or even if you're using kind of a software controller but you don't have a visual representation in front of you, it's all in the feel, right?
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, it's in your feel, it's in the ears. You might have a marker on the record If you're lucky you can set up your cue point but it's really in the feel. You got to feel the music, the rhythm and figure out what notes you want to kind of scratch over it. Tur, it's very, very sacred, very difficult, very sacred, and I'm not the best turntablist but I can scratch here and there and do things. But that's a skill that you must continue to practice for years to get to the levels of some of the best people in the world. But it's a great skill and it's an amazing tool to have in your tool belt yes.
Speaker 2:Do you ever come across any particular sounds or samples that you think, oh, that that would sound good. Scratched uh, sometimes like nature, sounds of nature. It could be like a, like a horn. Honking is also a good one, maybe if you're lucky enough to get a uh like, if you can hear like a lion, a lion or something like that. So nature sounds are good, sometimes even water. It just depends. It depends on how you're going to use it. So so there's plenty of different sounds you can use. It just depends on how you want to use it.
Speaker 1:Wow, I'm glad I asked you that, because I didn't expect you to say that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, life's full of surprises. Well, may I ask you about one of the books that you wrote, the Perfect Storm? You raised a very, very interesting subject that really captured my imagination and I'm sure that of many others as well what happened to R&B groups? Now, I would not be foolish or small minded enough to think that you can wrap all of the findings from a big research project like that into a short answer answer, um, but you know, is there anything you can kind of summarize for us, because there was a point in time in the early 2000s where r&b groups kind of just stopped and had been going for like 50 odd years. Um, what did you come across in your research?
Speaker 2:yeah, so in the book and I'll show you a copy. So the book right here is called the quiet storm. So the quiet storm or host historical and cultural analysis of the power, passion and pain of r&B Groups. This is the cover and so actually the title is A Quiet Storm. But it was an imperfect storm because there was five main things that happened.
Speaker 2:Hip hop went mainstream and record labels really chose to focus on hip hop and gave less focus and money and time to R&B groups. Edm also became bigger and radio kind of shifted to playing more EDM style music and artists as well, like, if you remember, back in the late 2000s, early 2010s, like Rihanna, neo, usher, all were making like EDM hits. So that was like the hot genre, I think, particularly in the US. I'm not sure what it was like in the UK. There was this bill that passed called the Telecommunications Act of 96, where instead of radios being a little bit more homegrown, based on the region they were at, they went to a playlisting format. So you know there are three main companies, that's that bought up almost all the radio stations and they went to playlisting. So if you're in like chicago in the states, you're in la, you're in dc new york you're basically going to hear the same songs in each city because they went to kind of more just the playlist. So the fact where most R&B groups would start in their cities like Boyz II Men started in like Philly, tlc was like in Atlanta. You have Shy. Another group started in DC, destiny's Child was in Houston. These groups usually would start regionally and then get bigger because the local radio stations would promote them and feature them and their songs would get hot in their regions and then grow nationally. But with playlisting that took that all away. So that was another reason.
Speaker 2:Then you also had African-American media, whether it be like Jet Magazine, epsom Magazine, ebony Magazine and Vibe. They all kind of went out of publication. Essence is still in publication but at its peak combined they had over 8,350,000 monthly subscribers. That went down to less than a million. So that was an issue there. And then we had shows over the US, like the Arsenio Hall show, which was great for earned media. They have these groups on performing so the public could get them. So that's how they got to mainstream. You, the in living color, another popular kind of sketch comedy show that would feature r&b groups and hip-hop a lot at the end of their show. They went off um the air and no shows replaced it. Um there's also this really popular show on cable tv called video soul on black entertainment television bt. That went away. So you keep losing all these kind of landmarks of shows that would promote these groups and eventually you get to the mid-2000s and once Destiny's Child all went solo that was a wrap.
Speaker 1:Interesting, okay, so kind of deregionalization became an issue. Yeah, that's a good way of putting it. Yeah, interesting, very interesting. I mean groups in general, you know. Know, we see less of them now, don't we um yeah, you do.
Speaker 2:I think money. Money has to do with like a lot of groups, just the money, the choreography, even female groups, male groups like they all kind of. However, like k-pop is still doing extremely well with the group concept, so the group concept works. It is. The question is, what is k-pop and what are they doing that maybe we can learn from? Because if you look at a K-pop video, a K-pop group, they are following the same playbook that R&B groups did. Blackpink looks very, very similar in how they have their videos, things like a TLC you look at, like BTS, when they were first starting, they kind of followed the form of like new edition, particularly with their videos and some of the songs. So they're doing it right. What can we learn from them?
Speaker 1:Well, that's an interesting question, because it might be that they learned from us.
Speaker 2:They did. Yeah, yeah, for sure.
Speaker 1:And of course, in Korea, especially Japan, perhaps the same as well, maybe even China. There is a kind of culture of compliance in the music industry whereby, ok, we don't even call it manufactured, we're just, we accept our roles and we and we go with it. We don't even call it manufactured, we accept our roles and we go with it. And at some point in the Western world we stopped doing that, which is good, right, because it means that we have free speech and everyone can be doing all the things that they want to do. But it's also meant that groups have slowed down dramatically. Maybe that's a factor, but your research is fascinating. You're such a clever dude. I love it. It's great having you here. Thank you. I want to pick your brains about your education, because you studied at Howard University and then you did your master's in music business at Berkeley. That's pretty damn impressive. Well done, thank you. How important has your education been to what you've gone on to do since?
Speaker 2:I think you know education is important. I know that going to college kind of gets a batter up a lot nowadays, but I think education is important. The more knowledge you have, the more opportunities you'll get, the more skills you'll be able to use in whatever work you're doing. And I'll even include when I went to Scratch Academy, the DJ school, twice that was kind of like getting your master's degree in DJing, a master's degree in music production. So when I went there that really helped me with my DJ skills, growing the DJ business and just learning about different types of sets programs.
Speaker 2:I I think that in addition to the knowledge you're learning, you're opening yourself up to another network of people, because then you can tap into like alumni, you meet current students. So you're there with like-minded people. You can learn from them in addition to the classroom. I I feel that by being at berkeley. That's where my thesis statement thesis project came from, which is where my second book came from, and so I'm just a fan of education. I think it's necessary and it just depends on what you want to do. You don't have to go to college to get educated. You can join a community for education, you can go to college, you can take courses, but I do feel that you should always be learning. You should be a lifelong learner. That will make you more successful in the long run.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, so the kind of the approach to learning regardless of where you're learning yeah, that's a very, very good point, I mean. So, speaking of learning, let's think about the teaching side of it, right, because you are, you know, a renowned professor in music business. What are some of the kind of the biggest challenges that your students face when learning about the business of music?
Speaker 2:I think they are pretty shocked when they come in and learn that most of the artists that they like there's only really the top 1% of artists who make a lot of money, and the rest of the artists they have to really really hustle and grind to make it and even some of the. So they have to really really hustle and grind to make it and even some of the. So that's one thing that shocks them. Another thing that shocks them is that even some of the most famous of artists, most popular artists maybe, don't know about the industry, so they make poor decisions. Maybe they give away their publishing, they give away some of their songwriting, they don't control their IP. And then we hear stories about how these artists want to get out of their contracts or they're not happy, and that shocks a lot of students because they think it's just an easy road. But once they sign with a label, it's easy. That's another thing.
Speaker 2:A lot of people feel that once an artist signs with a label, they've made it, it's done, the hard work is over. But really it's even harder because then the label has more control. They can release the, they can choose not to release the music. You kind of have to follow their instructions. You don't own your ip. So I think those three things really shock students because they're really used to just to seeing on the outside what goes on with artists. They have a nice video, they're at the award show, they're at the premiere, they hear their song on the radio. They think they get paid. I mean, even when I tell people that, particularly in the us, um, the people that get paid when a song is played on the radio is really the artist, it's not the artist, it's the songwriter and who owns the publishing. They get the money, not the artist necessarily, and that that's another shock. So as they start to learn things they just become more and more surprised at really the music business is a business and it's you know, it can be cutthroat.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that's you know. That's a very interesting point, because that's so. You know, the US is undeniably the tiger of the music industry, right, it's always been that way because they're the most influential country in the world, right, especially when it comes to pop culture, music, etc. But there's one flaw in that system in america and you just touched upon it then, right and that is neighboring rights, why artists and labels don't make money on their recordings, on their on radio and stuff. Do you know? I I had a look into the history on that and it seems to, unless I'm mistaken. So please correct me if I'm wrong on this right, but it seems to date back to like the 60s, I think, or maybe even earlier, where record companies said to broadcasters oh yeah, you don't pay us any royalties, like, what we get out of this is you playing our recording, so don't worry about paying us. And then it's never changed since.
Speaker 2:Yeah yeah, I think I'm trying to remember the exact meeting, the roman something. I have to remember the exact meeting, the roman treaty, or I have to look it up and see. But we were not present. When I say we, I mean the usa and neighborhood rights just are just dismissed. And now the radio companies are so afraid of compensating artists because that's going to put them out of business, because they built a business model based on not paying the songwriters and artists for being played. So now they are very active in legislation against changing that because it's going to put them out of business. So we've set up kind of a broken system and we refuse to fix it. So it's very child. I think it's the Roman Treaty. Let's look it up here.
Speaker 1:Yeah, actually that does ring a bell actually. Yeah, it's such a strange system. It always kind of makes me think come on, this is America, why haven't they fixed this yet? You know, it's so surprising, but I guess, if these things are steeped in time and people just get used to that system and then stop querying it, you know. But then in the US they started bringing in like was it digital performance royalties, you know, for like Cyrus and stuff like that? So there was like there's a little bit of kind of compensation there on IP for people that played on records.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, but most people don't know about that. They don't know that you can apply to, like, a sound exchange and a song trust and and get your digital performance for a tease, whether it's on sirius xm, pandora, iheart radio. That's not really common knowledge. It's out there. People kind of know, but people don't really understand that too. And then we have the uh mechanical licensing collective, which can help you also. So that's one thing I hope is I kind of just show people here all the places you can earn your revenue if your your music is played digitally for public. And so it's just, it's a lot of learning. I think it's called the rome treaty. It's like the rome convention in 1961, when we weren't present, and that's kind of where the law stems from. So if you look at that, that's 64 years ago.
Speaker 1:That's older than you and I that's crazy yeah. That's so odd, isn't it?
Speaker 2:It's very odd, and so it's just a shame that it hasn't been fixed. But now you get into like politics and why the big companies don't want to change it because it could severely affect their, their, balance sheet yeah, yeah that's.
Speaker 1:That's a tough thing to uh to try and try and fix, but it's just. It's just interesting because you know it, it that is a very complex subject around the world. You know it's something that I've talked about on this podcast before um to other people and you know it's. It's, by the way, it's not like it works like clockwork around the rest of the world because it doesn't right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you know, yeah, it's.
Speaker 1:You know like it's. You know, like australia, for example, have their own rules where they only collect on people that live there. They don't collect on, uh, you know, overseas residents and stuff. You know it's like everyone's kind of got their own little isms with that. You know it's a strange one. But you mentioned about network earlier. Have you noticed a pattern, either in your career or with your students, whereby they end up kind of working together with the people that they studied with and kind of go on and form relationships moving forward? Is that something you've witnessed?
Speaker 2:I have witnessed that I have, because I think for now the last two or three years we had a specific class on music business at the university that I created, and so I've noticed that some of the students who went through the first part of the program so this is two, three years ago are still kind of working together. They might be at different record labels or different organizations, but they still will collaborate. They'll send each other opportunities. Then they'll also also get them to come back to visit the university, visit the class, to tell about their career and then they'll they'll hire some of the students coming up. So it's growing like slowly but surely. So you can see the kind of collaboration and networking, because networking is probably the most important thing you can learn and practice outside of what you're learning in the. In the textbook. It's all about who you know in the industry. It's that is, that is the industry in itself who you know and who knows you.
Speaker 1:That's, that's so true. Do you know, just talking about cultural differences there, I've always thought again that the americans are so much better at that than we are. Um, you know, like you're just so much more kind of, um, so much cooler with the language. You know, I can't remember I remember many years ago being out in california and seeing you know, like here here's an example of what I mean right, so here we would say, you know, you've got to put your seat belt on because otherwise you're going to get fined. That's what we'd say, right. And then you go to la and you just see a sign saying click it or ticket, and you go, oh, that's so much cooler, what a great way of saying it. Yeah, and you know, and that's the kind of thing, that it might not be networking, but actually it's kind of, it's closely linked to what I'm about to say next. Right, which is just this coolness of language that the americans, I remember, um, going to a networking event out in LA this was years ago and you know, going up to people and saying hello, and you know people go, oh, what do you do?
Speaker 1:And I go, oh, well, you know, I write songs, I'm a producer, I do a bit of pop and they'd be like what, what, what, what, what, what, and then I'd see other people, and then I'd see other people. They'd just walk around with you know, americans, I mean walking around with like a business card in their hand. Go, yeah, I'm a composer producer. Bang, bang, bang, bang. It's so much more punchy, you know, and I thought, wow, they're so much better at this than I am, so I think that's another edge.
Speaker 2:Okay, we'll accept that. We'll accept that. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:But okay, but okay, I can let me ask you this question, right? So, um, what? What tips would you give to music creators now that are at the beginning of their careers? I'm sure there's like a thousand tips you could give them, but what springs to mind that you think would be useful for them to know?
Speaker 2:uh, that's a great, great, I would say. First here, I would say go invest and get the copy of this book right here. All you need to know about the music business and this is the 11th edition by Donald Passman this is like your ultimate textbook. Depending on what religion you are, I can say it's like the Bible, because that's kind of what they call it the music industry Bible. Read that book, refer back to it frequently.
Speaker 2:I would say, listen to as many podcasts as you can about the music business. I would also say it would be more beneficial for you to get and grow a group of 1,000 true fans than trying to get over a million followers. Of course you want to grow your platforms, but if you can get 1,000 true fans, that will buy $100 of your work a year. That will get you $100,000 a year and from there that could be your baseline and then you can build on top of that. But I would say, immediately capture as much video, capture as many email addresses and phone numbers as you can from a jump. Get yourself a lead magnet, whether it's you playing an acoustic version of a song, an exclusive song that's not been released, maybe it's a PDF of, like the top 10 tips you have about creating music. Get yourself a lead magnet so you can start to get these email addresses. And then you go start a youtube. I know we get into tiktok and instagram and that's good. You can have those too. But youtube is a good one because you can try to get monetized on there and that can be like your home base.
Speaker 2:Um, also, if you're, make sure you have the website and the email address of your artist name. So if your name is like les the Singer, then you need to have lesliethesingercom and then you need to have info at lesliethesingercom for your email address, because that way labels and professionals will take you more seriously. If you have all these things set up, then if you're using a Gmail, you can use a Gmail at first, but very quickly get that domain name. It's only $12 or $13. Create the email addresses through Gmail and do that. I mean, that's just probably seven tips right off the bat, but I think the one that's missed a lot is capturing the email addresses and the phone numbers.
Speaker 2:People are so worried about growing their followers, but you don't want to build your house on rented real estate is kind of the saying, because you don't own those platforms. They can go away at any time and a lot of times we get caught up in whether it be tiktok, instagram, twitch, all these platforms like, like. Own your own audience. That's so important and if you can do that and add on top of it, grow to your a thousand true fans, I think you will. You'll have a slow but steady career that will grow and be more thorough, just more sustainable yeah, yeah, good, good, good advice.
Speaker 1:Do you know? It's interesting you say that um as well about kind of data capture. Because, um, you know, I've often thought over the years, you know, um, like, let's say, you look at an artist and they've really, really grown, they've got some good editorial support, whatever, and they've got this big boost of spikes. And then I think, what if spotify went down tomorrow? Like what, what does that, what does that following look like then? And I think that's prompted a lot of people to think differently about that subject, which falls in line with what, what you're saying there. Also, what you're saying also falls in line with a lot of the um, the ideology behind a lot of Web3 startups now, right, you know, kind of decentralization of platforms and kind of owning your own data and that kind of thing. It all falls in line with that model as well, that theory of the thousand true fans. So, yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I agree, because you have to own it and then you can build on top of it from there. Because you know, TikTok went down for like 12 or 13 hours in the US early in January and people were like, oh my gosh, where am I going to go? Where am I going to go? You know, sometimes Twitter issues with Twitter, so people go to Blue Sky. So you go into all these different platforms where you really need to just have your email address, your newsletter, just so you can communicate directly, and phone numbers. If you can get someone's phone number and be able to text your fans, that's gold, yeah yeah good, I remember hearing about that TikTok crash in the US.
Speaker 1:I remember actually thinking just outside of music for a minute. I remember just thinking, oh, I bet that's quite peaceful.
Speaker 2:It's very peaceful, yes, but people who, who are addicted, it wasn't peaceful for them because they were scrambling, trying to figure out what else they were going to do. So, yeah, yeah, that's funny.
Speaker 1:Yeah, if you're, if you yeah, that's the first thing that popped into my mind. Maybe I'm just uh, you know, showing my middle age there, but anyway, um, one, one final question I want to put to you, and it kind of builds upon the last question, right, which is imagine this, imani right. Imagine that you were to bump into you 20 years ago, the you of you now and the you 20 years ago, and you put your arm around your younger self and you said hey, do you know what? Don't worry, everything's going to be okay. But I need to tell you this. What would you say to yourself?
Speaker 2:I would say 20 years ago. I would say, like, djing is a legitimate career, so don't worry about what other people think. I would say, like being a professor and teaching as much as you try to run from it, it's still going to come and appear in front of you. I would say that. And I would also say, like, build your email list on the business side. Just build your email list and don't be afraid to write the book that you've been kind of thinking about or that would move you, which is I finally did that with the Quiet Storm. But I would really just say, continue to be very selective and diligent about who you spend your time with, because you know you're the sum of the five people you spend the most time with, and if you choose the wrong people, that can that can set you back some years, and so those would be just some pieces of advice I would say.
Speaker 2:I would also probably say you know, don't try not to worry as much. Um, oh, I would say so much because we have the. We have the experience and the wisdom, 20 years later, of just just seeing that. But those are some of the top things I would say for me personally. Um, but really it would be that, not really worrying about what people think, djing is a legitimate career and as much as you try to run and hide from teaching, you know, don't run from it because you're extremely talented at it. Yeah good for you?
Speaker 1:um well, I would say you listened right and you're extremely talented at it. Yeah, Good for you. Well, I would say you listened right and you're a true gentleman. So I'm sure the younger version of yourself would look up and go. Thanks, man.
Speaker 2:I appreciate that, yeah, but if you're getting in a car, click it and ticket. Yes, yes, click it and ticket. Yes, don't be on your cell phone either. Yes, yeah, that's true.
Speaker 1:You're a top man. I really appreciate you. I appreciate you being here with me today. I appreciate everything that you do for everybody that you interact with. You're a great guy and good luck with all your projects, your ideas, those future books, everything else that you do. Just go and be you, and we appreciate you.
Speaker 2:Well, thank you very much for having me. It was a great conversation.
Speaker 1:Top man. It was really nice talking to him, aren't they Really really nice guy and has a very multidimensional view. You know he looks from various different angles, not only the kind of modern stuff but also the traditional aspects of intellectual property and the business behind music. He was a great guest. I enjoyed talking to him. I hope you enjoyed listening. Until next time, everybody, may the force be with you.
