Episode 75: Connecting Music and Markets with C2 Management CEO Waylon Barnes

What if you could stop guessing your audience and start growing it with proof? I sit down with Waylon Barnes—entrepreneur, musician, and CEO of C2 Management—to map out how modern artists turn attention into a real business. We dig into the mechanics of audience discovery using data and social listening, why so many campaigns miss the mark when they rely on hunches, and the practical steps that make every pound work harder.

Waylon pulls back the curtain on a quiet industry shift: labels increasingly outsource marketing to specialised teams, which means independent artists can access the same playbooks without giving up control. We explore how to structure your strategy so the music sparks attention while the business around the music pays the bills—think sync deals, brand partnerships, merch, touring, and appearances. You’ll hear how streaming acts as public proof rather than a paycheck, why platform virality matters but shouldn’t be your home base, and what it takes to build an ecosystem you actually own.

We also tackle the streaming payout problem and the reforms that would move artists closer to a living wage. To ground it all, Waylon shares three principles for newcomers that cut through paralysis: don’t overthink, don’t fear mistakes, and take yourself seriously. If you’ve been wondering how to choose a single, when to invest in marketing, or how to keep control while scaling your team, this conversation offers a candid blueprint for sustainable growth.

If you enjoyed this conversation, follow the show, leave a rating or review, and share it with a music creator who needs a strategic nudge forward.

https://ctwomanagement.com

https://www.instagram.com/c2mgmt/

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome And Guest Introduction
• 2:33 What C2 Management Actually Does
• 3:48 Do Artists Need A Defined Niche?
• 6:12 Data Over Guesswork In Marketing
• 7:43 Are We Too Reliant On Social Media?
• 9:58 Building Income Beyond The Music
• 13:24 Labels, Outsourcing, And Artist Control
• 18:12 Holistic, Long‑Term Artist Development
• 21:24 Streaming Payouts And Needed Reforms
• 24:00 Final Advice For Emerging Artists
• 30:40 Closing Reflections And Sign‑Off

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:13

Hello and welcome everybody. You're listening to the Music Business Buddy with me, Johnny Angels, podcasting out of Birmingham in England. A very warm welcome to you. I am the author of the book, The Music Business for Music Creators, available in hardback, paperback, and ebook format. I'm a music creator with a variety of credits as a writer-producer. I'm a consultant, an artist manager, and a senior lecturer in both music business and music creation. Wherever you are and whatever you do, please consider yourself welcome to this podcast and to a part of this community. I'm here to try and educate and inspire music creators from all over the world in their quest to achieving their goals by gaining a greater understanding of the business of music. Okay, so in this week's episode, uh I interview Whalen Barnes, who is an American entrepreneur, businessman, and musician based in Los Angeles, California. Whalen is the founder and CEO of C2 Management, as well as the co-founder and president of Marketing Wonder. Whalen established C2 Management as a music marketing company that focuses on both artist development and also marketing for both independent and mainstream artists, as well as for labels and for management companies too. So through his work at C2, he's collaborated with Grammy Award-winning musicians and billboard charting artists and some of the biggest names in the industry. He continues to serve as uh an active uh managing partner and the s and the sitting CEO of the company. Uh in addition, he's also a member of the Forbes Council, where he regularly contributes articles on the modern music industry and shares his marketing insights right with the global readership. He's a very impressive man, he's a very nice man, and uh the interview with him I shall play now. Waylon, welcome to the music business, buddy. Uh it's good to have you here. Firstly and foremost, how are you? I'm great.

SPEAKER_02: 2:02

Living life. Life's fantastic. I'm sitting here talking to you, so things are things are going swimmingly. Ah, likewise.

SPEAKER_00: 2:10

I'll go along with that. Well, I Wayland, I've got to say this to begin with, because I, you know, I've been I've been reading about you and and all the things that you that you do, and you have an incredibly impressive portfolio. So I might I just start by just congratulating you, right, on everything that you've achieved to this point in your career. Um, you know, it's really great to be joined by you. Um let's let's start by talking about the work that C2 Management does. You work with, you know, emerging artists as well as more established uh acts, and you work with labels and and management companies with a focus on both, you know, the sort of artistic development and also the strategic approach to marketing and whatnot. How is how important is it that an artist that you work with has a good idea of their sort of niche, their market before they engage with your services?

SPEAKER_02: 3:02

Sure. Uh I mean, look, it's a good question, but uh I don't think it's particularly important. Uh I think uh it's helpful 100%, but uh really that's what we're for. So, you know, I've worked with countless artists that uh think they know who their niche is and uh who their main audience is, and come to find out they they really couldn't have been more wrong, right? So yes, 100% is it fantastic that you that you think you know it or that you have no clue, whatever it may be, uh that's what we're for. We utilize a lot of proprietary data and and social listening tools to really identify who your main audience is, right? So, not particularly important when you come to us. That's what we're for. We're your trusted advisors, and you know, we're gonna give you the short of the skinny.

SPEAKER_00: 3:53

What a brilliant answer. I love that. Um, because I know that there is so much pressure sometimes on artists to have to be multifaceted and to kind of, you know, try their best to understand their audience and then do what they can with that data. But the art form of building inferences from looking at data is something that, you know, many artists perhaps might struggle with because their focus is on making music. And you're absolutely right. If they think they have a good understanding of who their audience is and they build towards that, but actually they're kind of wrong, then they can put a lot of you know the wrong steps in place. Um, so that's really refreshing to hear you say that. I like that.

SPEAKER_02: 4:34

Yeah, you know, I think um it's super important for artists to know the direction they're going into. So if you know exactly who your audience is, you're not gonna frivolously spend in the wrong direction, right? And I think if you're spending in the wrong direction, uh your budget is not gonna go as far, you're not gonna do as well, and and that's that. So utilizing data and really figuring out and pinpointing who your audience is, if it's 18 to 24-year-old females that like Taylor Swift, then that's it, right?

SPEAKER_00: 5:11

Yeah, yeah. Good, good, good point. Do you know so many people get that wrong? I I had um um a past guest on the podcast. I'm sure he um he's I'm sure he won't mind me mentioning this because it's public information, but he he was um consulting for uh for Sony on um Rug and Bowman's um uh second campaign, and uh and he was talking about how before streaming data the profile marketing was basically second guessing. You know, we think that young girls between 16 and 24 are gonna like this, and actually, by the time streaming data came out and the analyzed stuff, it was like, oh right, no, it's men over the age of 35, actually, you know, yeah, it's like couldn't have been more wrong with this. Um, and uh, you know, you can make these mistakes, you could have spent millions on the wrong campaign there, you know, and then gone, oh well, that hasn't worked, let's move on, let's drop the artist or whatever it might be. Um, so it's important to get that sort of you know. Um now, what about what about this? I apologize in advance, by the way, Whaling, because this is a stinker of a question, right? But um I thought you're a knowledgeable guy, I'll throw this at you and see what you think, right? I love the stinkers, let's do it. Good man. So um, so with kind of virality leading to uh streaming growth and then streaming growth leading to fandom, that sort of funnel, if you will, has the recorded music sector become too reliant on social media?

SPEAKER_02: 6:41

Well, certainly, yeah. I I and to some point I'm confident that uh every sector in the entertainment industry and and most businesses are too reliant on it. You know, you can even move to a another vertical like movies and and television and talk about a guy like Leonardo DiCaprio, who's one of the biggest movie stars on the planet. And now he's trying to make viral content on TikTok and reels on Instagram in order to promote his latest movie, right? And when you have a guy that is one of the biggest movie stars on the planet that needs to assimilate in this way, uh it's very telling that this is the most effective marketing tool out there, right? It's very telling that everybody is reliant on it. And so, yes, the music industry, like everybody else, is very reliant on the uh social media platforms, and for good reason. It's the most effective tool, it's the center of focus, it's the center of attention for even the biggest stars on the planet music, movies, whatever it is.

SPEAKER_00: 7:47

It's always healthy, isn't it, to look at um different um different aspects of the creative industries and to see you know what we can learn from them when we think about the music side of things, you know. Um because that that's a very good example there. Um well let's let's let's let's think about this outside of the music, right? Because I hear a lot of people uh that talk to me about the subject, not not just on this podcast, actually, but um offline, let's say, uh in the industry, uh, that talk about the importance of artists that kind of create strategies outside of their music so that their music can find relevance in order to create more sort of ancillary income streams, you know. Um is that something that you've noticed and do you have any thoughts on it?

SPEAKER_02: 8:36

Yeah, I mean, look, it's probably the most important thing that an artist can do. Contrary to popular belief, music doesn't make that much money anymore. Uh, most of the money is going to come from indirect income. So that's sync deals, brand deals, merch, performances, appearance fees. Those are the things that artists need to have a blueprint to attract, right? And so attention is what attracts them. So for literally anything of value, attention's the biggest commodity. So one of the tools is their music, right? Of course, they make good music. Maybe it goes viral, maybe it has a moment. Awesome. You have some attention, right? Tool number two is marketing it, right? So if you use marketing properly, you're gonna add fuel to the fire. So that's gonna help it grow outside its grow outside of its organic bubble. Um, those indirect income streams are gonna be a lot easier to attain. And so, yes, I think it is the most important strategy for artists to create strategies outside of their music because that's simply how they're they're gonna get paid, right? You're you're demonstrating that you're an artist in demand. It's you know, you take a value proposition like somebody that's booking somebody in Chicago, for instance. Wow, this person's definitely worth booking in Chicago. Look at how many streams they've had in the last 28 days here. They can definitely put butts in seats and sell tickets, right? And so that's super important to put that out there, right? And to make sure that they have strategies outside of their music, but also recognizing that their music is the attention that's going to attract those streams. Or wow, look at how many people have used this artist's audio on TikTok. Of course it makes sense to sync them in this new hot movie. Look how many people are already loving the song on TikTok. So having a strategy and a blueprint to how to attract these things is super important. Yes, make great music, make sure that it attracts the attention, but also use marketing properly as a tool. And those indirect income streams will head your way, and you'll be able to make it in the music industry, at least in a living wage side of things or in a way that could be bigger outside of the music.

SPEAKER_00: 11:03

Yeah, good point. Good point. I think I think one of the uh the turning points there for many music creators is just being aware of that, you know, that that that's something that they perhaps need to need to think about. And the education lift towards that can only be a good thing. I mean, you you you're you're you're particularly good at that, because I've I've read some of the uh the articles that because you're on the you're on the Forbes Council, right? And so you're written. That's right. Some of you I've written read some of the articles that you've that you've written through with through Forbes, and you you you focus on that, right? Kind of trying to sort of educate people on best practice, things that they can do. Um I I really appreciate that you do that, by the way, because um there's some absolute gems in some of the stuff that you've put out in those articles.

SPEAKER_02: 11:49

Thank you. I I think it's important for artists to understand how to make it in the music industry and how to approach things in a holistic way, because a lot of it starts from you, the person, and also it comes from being aware of the current lay of the land of the modern music industry. I think a lot of modern artists still have this archaic way of thinking that, oh, I'm gonna sign to this major label and I'm gonna make millions of dollars, and my art's gonna find a spot in modern culture. And the reality of it is that major labels are not always the best answer, but they are also a necessary uh part of the music industry, and the more you know, the better you're going to be able to make the decisions that are conducive to your success or your goals?

SPEAKER_00: 12:53

Yeah, absolutely right. Absolutely. Um what about and let's think about the audio streaming kind of ecosystem, right? Is there are there any changes? I mean, you know, or let's put it this way, what changes, if any, would you like to see in the audio streaming ecosystem uh moving forward, you know, for artists? Do the do the DSPs need to adapt to any changes that you foresee ahead?

SPEAKER_02: 13:24

Yeah, I mean, the first thing that I would say is I'd really like them to pay artists more, point blank, uh, a living wage. I think that it's deserved. And I think the reason why an artist needs to have a plan outside of their music is simply because the DSPs, the platforms, they're not paying the artists a living wage for their music. And I think DSPs could be a bit more of an ally to the artist and and demand more for the artists distributing through them. And you know, of course, that may or may not happen because, you know, they're on the take. They're they're getting uh they're a little bit more under the thumb of the platforms and the labels as opposed to who their real clients are, and that's the artists. So in short, I think the changes that I would like to see is that they pay artists a living wage, they pay artists the proper amount per stream, and they just pay artists more in general because they are the bread and butter of the entirety of the music industry.

SPEAKER_00: 14:34

I'd like to see that too as well. Yeah, that's a that's a that's a good point. Do you know one of the things that I thought of when I when I was reading about about uh you know about your company, about C2 management and what you do, um, I thought to myself, wow, this is this is uh very, very now because we're what we're seeing is a move towards a much more kind of artist-centered ecosystem, which and I kind of think, what does that really look like? And I suppose it what it really looks like is kind of ownership of intellectual property and rights uh and and and also flexibility to kind of work with who you want to work with. So if in an ideal world, let's say an artist says, right, okay, I'm gonna sign a major deal with Universal, I'm gonna have this fantastic team around me, um, actually they're not gonna have any kind of say so uh as to as to kind of um you know what what the marketing team do on a day-to-day basis or how they report to them or whereas if if they were to go, do you know what, instead of going to Universal, what we're gonna do is we're gonna go to the distributor and get advanced through them, because then we can spend the money on the people that we actually do want to work with, uh people like your good self, right? Um that would then go, this is this is the idea of what we want to do, we don't really know how to get there. Wait, then do you have an idea of how we get there? And you know, and so what you offer there um it is much more akin to uh to control uh for the artist and to have that flexibility, that freedom. I think there's gonna be, you know, purely that surely there must have been a point perhaps, you know, a few years ago where you kind of spotted that and thought this is needed here, you know. Um was that kind of why you set up the company?

SPEAKER_02: 16:12

Yeah, certainly. I mean, look, we started out of a studio in Hollywood six years ago in October. It was our six-year anniversary, and one of the biggest things that we noticed is that artists would make music and they really had no idea what to do with their music afterwards. And uh my my thought process behind that is, and and I know it's probably an antiquated uh parallel here, but you know, if nobody knows about your music, they might as well play Frisbee in the park with your CD, right? And I know we don't use CDs anymore, but the the sentiment's the same, right? Yeah, and so one of the biggest reasons why we started the company was really just to give the artists a choice and trusted advisorship and um help in a really difficult music industry, a really confusing place where you have to wear 40 hats just to be an artist. And so, out of necessity, C2 Management was born to help those artists, right? And fast forward to a few years ago, you know, you say, okay, well, these guys want to sign to a major label and uh they don't really get a say-so in the marketing, but uh, you know, maybe they don't sign the major label deal and they take an advance from the DSP and then they get to go work with C2 Management or some other marketing company. The funny part that people don't tell you about is that most of these labels in the last few years have fired entire marketing departments and are outsourcing to third parties like us already. So you got an artist that's coming to go sign a deal thinking they're gonna get universal music groups marketing, or and I'm not saying it's universal music group or anything to that nature, but as an example, right? They're saying, oh, we're we think we're gonna get this marketing from this major label, but in reality, this major label is turning around and just outsourcing to us anyway. It's like at the end of the day, if you're able to do it yourself, you can get the same sort of marketing from our company that you could get from signing to a major label because we are the third-party marketing company of said label.

SPEAKER_00: 18:30

Yeah, okay. I'm glad you said that because I I uh I've noticed that shift as well. In fact, literally earlier today, um, I was talking to uh you know a music industry professional about a couple of artists that he's working with. One of them in particular is very, very established, and uh and and and his label are doing exactly that. They they're literally they they you know um reduce their staff count. Uh for for those reasons it was the entire marketing team. Um and you know, but it it is perhaps to be able to have more flexibility, to be able to go, right, let's go and work with these guys over here, they have a good idea of how they do this, and you know, you're very specialized in what you do, you know. I I I I think um sometimes for artists it can be difficult to be able to kind of you know, the goal is in making that music, right? Getting that art out of them. And perhaps there's not always the thoughts of how does this actually connect with people? Like who who would listen to this? What else are they into? What does what is their lifestyle like? Um, and so you know, you you you you're the perfect partner there, you know, to be able to kind of come in from an objective position and say, right, you know, this thing that you've put your heart and soul into. We we can see some alignment here with with with these kind of partners over here, and then they kind of go, Oh, I never would have thought about that if I'd not spoken to you, you know, and that's what this is all about, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02: 19:58

It really is. It's it's making sure that you know the artists have a place where they feel they have a team, as opposed to signing the deal and hey, go make your records and come to us when it's done. It's like, no, okay, well, I need somebody that's gonna be there every step of the way. Hey, what do you think about this record? Is this worth being the single? Or hey, what do you think of uh this rollout idea? Or should I brand myself in this way? It's having that trusted consultancy, that advisorship that's really going to help them and build their team for the long haul for success. One of our biggest beliefs is that we feel the artist needs a place to feel seen, to feel heard, to feel guided because they're gonna make the best music from that scenario, from that situation. And also, we don't want to just be hired guns. We want to work with artists for the long haul. It's a more symbiotic relationship. The more successful the artist is, the more they're gonna say, wow, we rode in on this horse that's C2 management. And yeah, of course, you know, I just got this big advance, but like I'm I'm gonna spend it with C2 management because they've already gotten me to this place for me to attract this deal, right? And so we want to see success for all of the artists we work with, and that's why we're big on development, because that's gonna be a trusted client for the rest of their life cycle for uh for them being an artist. And they make money, we make money, vice versa, right? Yeah, exactly.

SPEAKER_00: 21:40

Yeah, good good point. Because I mean, okay, so this is an industry what that's seen an awful lot of change over the last couple of decades, especially, but perhaps one thing that hasn't changed in any way is is the idea that it is a people-based business. You know, it thrives when people work with other people and they understand other people. And and and as an artist grows, you yourself will grow. You know, you're more knowledgeable now than you were 10 years ago, and 10 years from now you'll be even more knowledgeable than you are now, and people benefit from that as they grow and as you grow. So it's it's a wonderful way of looking at it like that in a sort of holistic long form kind of fashion because that's something that perhaps is not always um uh that people aren't always aware of, right? It's just that long-term thinking, you know.

SPEAKER_02: 22:30

Well, and to a to a certain extent, if you're thinking long term, you're going to give solutions that are going to be sustainable long term and help the artists be confident and successful long term. And that's what's really important because this music industry is a place where there's a certain elasticity to most people's careers, unless they become, you know, a Madonna or a Michael Jackson or you know, inter blue chip artist here, right? There's an elasticity. You know, they're gonna have maybe their relevance fades, you know. That happens for most people in the hip-hop industry. They get older and they have nothing that I mean, you take Andre 3000, huge fan, but he gave an interview that said something like, uh, yeah, I don't really want to rap anymore because I don't really have anything to rap about. What am I gonna rap about? My colonoscopy, right? And so, you know, it you can lose your relevance there depending on whether whatever genre you're in or your age, right? So there's that elasticity, or you know, maybe you lose your voice and you can't sing anymore. Or uh maybe you just don't have the funds to record anymore and you got dropped from your label. There's always an elasticity to it, right? And um we're human beings, so we obviously age and and there's that natural elasticity as well. Not everybody could be Ozzy Osborne until the last few days he dies and give up a hell of a show, right? Um, and so making sure that we give holistic advice and sustainable advice to sustain the career for however long it is, is super important.

SPEAKER_00: 24:22

Yeah, good point. Good point. Um Waylon, final question for you um is and again it's a bit of a difficult one, but I wanted to run it past you to see what you think. But what advice would you give to emerging artists that are just starting out, just starting out right now, um, before they've released any music? What what advice would you give to them at this stage?

SPEAKER_02: 24:50

That was a super amazing question, actually. And you know, a lot of green behind the the ears artists are probably thinking this, right? Yeah. I would say I have three three pieces of advice, and I'll I'll talk a little bit about each one, right? Thank you. I think the first one is don't overthink it. Uh there's a book that I read recently called Eat That Frog by Brian Tracy. Do you know it? No, I don't know it. So it's about productivity and being efficient and not procrastinating, all that's good stuff, right?

unknown: 25:29

Okay.

SPEAKER_02: 25:30

But uh in it, he gives a story about uh these guys that are trying to make their way across the Sahara Desert. Super arduous journey. And of course, you know, anybody who's gonna try to go over the walk through the Sahara Desert is probably thinking, wow, uh I probably need to overthink this a little bit before I get started, right? And so, you know, they get started on the journey and they quickly find out that, you know, after there was uh French control of Algeria, that the French government or the French forces or whatever it was put these 55-gallon barrel drums in the middle of the desert every five kilometers. So you get to one oil drum and you could see the one behind it and then the one in front of you, right? And so if you take each oil drum one at a time, you can make your way across the the Sahara Desert, right? And so I think overthinking it and and life and in general being on a on a path um is very similar as far as a parable to the story, because you really don't know what's going to be revealed to you until you get on the path, right? So if these guys overthought it, they probably would have wouldn't have found out that you know quickly, oh, there's a 55-gallon oil drum that's sitting here uh in the Sahara Desert every five kilometers. And so, you know, they got on the path and it was revealed to them as they went along with it. And I think that this is uh very similar to what the music industry is and most things in life, that you're never gonna know what is there and what will be revealed to you until you get started. And so overthinking it is something that is never going to help you get started. So a lot of artists will say, Oh, this is my first album or this is my magnum opus or whatever it is, and they're too afraid to get started because they're thinking about things that don't even exist yet or that haven't even been revealed to them, right?

SPEAKER_00: 27:35

And so wow, yeah. Oh, that's a wonderful piece of advice. I love that.

SPEAKER_02: 27:40

Yeah. And so um, you know, you gotta look for your next oil drum, but in order to find it, you got to get started, right? And so don't overthink it is is is advice number one, right? The second one I would say is don't be afraid to make mistakes. Um if you're afraid to make mistakes, you're probably gonna overthink things. And if you're overthinking things, you're probably afraid to make mistakes. And so being open to not making mistakes is going to lead you to a lot of successes in life. You know, most of the entrepreneurs in the world say fail a million times or whatever it is, in order to find your path. And so that's super important. You think of a guy like uh Machine Gun Kelly, for instance, uh, excellent rapper. I always thought he was an excellent rapper. And uh people think he's he made the mistake of dissing Eminem, right? And uh what grew out of that was he became an alternative artist and one of the most famous alternative artists on the planet and had an amazing career. And if people were like, oh man, don't diss Eminem, that's gonna be a mistake, you know, maybe he wouldn't have ever realized this path for himself, right? And so that's another story, right? Or or or even, you know, you have an artist that gets into the studio and they're like afraid to make mistakes, so they're super robotic in action and they're not loose and their recording doesn't sound great. If you're afraid to make mistakes the whole time, you're not ever going to see these successes that can sprout from it, right? And uh so that's two. The third and the most important one to me is just take yourself seriously. If you're not gonna take yourself seriously, no one else is, point blank. And that's really all there is to it.

SPEAKER_00: 29:26

Yeah, because I think you can that that third point there is uh is an interesting one because um I think sometimes artists might um uh uh uh struggle to segregate themselves as people away from being artists. And uh, you know, you've got to take you you know your your uh the business side of you very seriously, but that that doesn't necessarily uh mean the same thing as taking yourself too overly seriously as a as a person, perhaps. Um you know, um but it it It it's a very, very, very important point. Three absolute wise nuggets of advice there, Wayland. Thank you so much. I really appreciate that. Um, you're a top man. I appreciate uh I appreciate the talk. I appreciate you coming here and uh and sharing your thoughts and uh keep up the good work with everything you do, with all of your projects, all of your ideas. I wish you nothing but luck going forward and uh you know keep keep keep doing the the the good things that you're doing in this industry.

SPEAKER_02: 30:30

Thank you. I I really appreciate it. And uh I feel the same. I think you're doing great things. I think you're providing uh a fantastic place for artists and people in the music industry to have discourse and talk about things that matter, and and I really um give you a big salute for that. So keep it up. I I'm really happy to be on the podcast here today and and happy to see the things that you're doing.

SPEAKER_00: 30:55

Oh, top man, likewise. Thank you so much, Whalen. Of course. Ah, top guy. What a lovely fella. I know I say that a lot, by the way, about guests, but I really mean it. Like I'm you know, I pride myself in sort of uh you know uh collecting good people, let's say, in this business. And uh my goodness, Whalen fits that bill. Uh a really, really nice guy. Do you know what, everybody? He really, really cares. Uh and that I think is why he's got so good at what he does. And what he does is very multifaceted, of course. And he, of course, he pl he implows uh everything he's got into everything that he does, and it really, really shows not only in his in his sort of success rate, but also just in his perspective. You know, he's kind, he's warm, he really, really cares about art, and he is of course an artist himself. Uh, I hope that you've enjoyed that episode. Uh have a great day, everybody. Until next time, may the force be with you.

SPEAKER_01: 31:52

The music, business study. The music, business study.