Episode 80: Marketing and Music Education with Mike King

Want to understand why some young artists accelerate while others stall? We sat down with Mike King—VP of Enrolment Management and Marketing at Interlochen Center for the Arts and longtime music marketing educator—to map the through-line from community and craft to career momentum. Mike shares what makes Interlochen unique: a culture where students “find their people,” learn to live and create at a high standard, and step onto stages with top orchestras and icons.The result isn’t just prestige; it’s a repeatable pathway where skills deepen, networks form, and artistic identity hardens through real-world pressure.

We dig into how Gen Z actually learns and why traditional lectures fall flat. Short-form, visual, collaborative, and asynchronous models don’t lower the bar—they move it to where attention lives. Mike explains how to design learning and fan engagement around these patterns so growth compounds. From there we trace the arc of music marketing since 2007: early DIY optimism, tool sprawl, consolidation, and today’s renewed window for artist-led success. The constant is a reliable framework: own your website, grow permission-based contacts, and understand fans at a psychographic level so campaigns feel like a conversation, not a pitch.

Then we get practical. Jónsi and Alex’s vegan cookbook shows how non-music value can perfectly align with fan identity while building your list. Boards of Canada’s cryptic trail proves how to mobilise a committed community with puzzles and play. We talk about choosing niches over trends, proving craft through performance, and avoiding the common mistake of selling before you have a community. Most importantly, we break down why rights ownership and smart deals change your revenue story more than social metrics ever will. If you’re an emerging artist, manager, or educator, you’ll leave with a roadmap you can use this week.

Enjoy the conversation? Follow the show, share it with a friend who needs a marketing reset, and leave a quick review to help more music creators find us.

https://www.interlochen.org

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome And Guest Introduction
• 0:54 Why Interlochen Stands Apart
• 6:02 Culture, Community, And Alumni Outcomes
• 10:44 Gen Z Learning Styles And Online Models
• 17:22 From Labels To DIY: Tools And Cycles
• 24:56 Building Integrated Marketing Foundations
• 29:52 Fan Alignment: Smart Campaign Examples
• 37:12 Targeting Niches Over Trends

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:12

Hello everybody, and a very, very warm welcome to you. You're listening to the Music Business Buddy with me, Johnny Amos, podcasting out of Birmingham in England. I'm the author of the book, The Music Business for Music Creators, available in hardback, paperback, and ebook format. I'm a music creator as a writer-producer with a variety of credits. I'm a consultant, an artist manager, and a senior lecturer in both music business and music creation. Wherever you are, whatever you do, please consider yourself welcome to this podcast and to a part of the community that is around it. Uh I'm here to try and educate and inspire music creators from all over the world in their quest to achieving their goals by gaining a greater understanding of the business of music. Okay, this week's episode is an interview with Mike King. Mike is the vice president for enrolment management and marketing at Interlochen Centre for the Arts. If you've never heard of Interlochin before, it's a very prestigious special place uh in North America, which actually uh has created many stars over the years in the music world. The likes of Josh Grobin, Chapel Roan, Jewel, Nora Jones, and many more um are amongst their alumni. Um Mike is also a marketeer, right, and an expert music business educator. So his roots in the music industry um are at places record companies like Ryko Disc and uh uh Rounder Records and also Palm Pictures, where he worked on marketing campaigns for the likes of Mickey Hart, Andrew Byrd, Morphine, Bill Hicks, the great Frank Zapper, even he's a dedicated and recognized music educator. Um, he was in fact known best music business teacher uh by the National Association of the Record Industry Professionals. So he has a wide scope of information, not only around music education but also in marketing. Uh he also spent a long time um you know at places like Berkeley Music College. So there's all sorts of uh things that he knows about which I think would be very useful uh to the listeners of the show, right? So uh I'm gonna play the interview with Mike. Uh you'll probably you'll probably be able to tell. We get on really well, right? I had never met him before, but we uh it felt like we were kindred spirits. We have a lot in common. So uh also I must apologize for the start of the interview. My voice is a little distorted and a little clippy. Uh I've done what I can to try and repair that, but I promise it does get better as the interview goes on. Okay, I will play the interview. Take note and enjoy, everybody. Mike, welcome to the music business, buddy. Uh, it's good to have you here. How are you?

SPEAKER_01: 2:44

Great, Johnny. Thanks so much for having me here.

SPEAKER_00: 2:46

Oh no, that's a pleasure's mine. Thank you for joining me. It's much appreciated. There's lots we could talk about, but let's get started with this. You are the currently the vice president for enrolment management and marketing at Interlochen Centre for the Arts. Um so, you know, this is an institute with like a 100-year legacy and alumni uh that includes the likes of Chapel Roan, Josh Grobin, Jewel, Nora Jones, and many more from the musical side of things. Um, what is it about Interlochen that separates itself from other musical education settings?

SPEAKER_01: 3:19

Yeah, it's a it's a great question. And my background, prior to working at Interlochen, I did a similar role at Berkeley College of Music and I was involved in admissions and marketing. And every year I would see these kids come through from Interlochen that were just extraordinary, not only um extraordinary with what they can do and their craft, but they, you know, they knew how to live away from home. And um, you know, so I knew there was something going on here from kind of that seat, you know, um, being on the admission side um at a music school. Um, and I got to uh meet the president of Interlocken, a guy named Trey Debbie, who was fantastic. And when I had the opportunity to work at Interlocken, I really got to see it firsthand. Like, what is it that creates these kids? And of course, there's, you know, fantastic faculty, we're gonna be 100 years old in 2028. Um, but there's this thing that keeps popping up with students where they say, you know, um, they find their people at Interlocken, like people like them. So it's really this interesting um community and culture in northern Michigan between two lakes, as the name would suggest, that's really unlike anywhere else, where, you know, the kids are kind of surrounded by other kids that are really similar to them. And the first time I was on campus, I, you know, there's uh uh an airport not too far uh from campus, and I was riding to campus with somebody in uh a car. It was somebody that had recently graduated from Academy that was coming back to teach at camp. And, you know, she was kind of filling me in and how meaningful interlock-in was for her while she was there, and she's so you know happy to be back um teaching. And when we pulled in, I couldn't believe it because she put her window down and I was sitting next to her, and you know, driving by um kids that were like, ah, it's you, you know, so like it just has this feel of um everyone's kind of in it together, you know. So I think like the place is really important. Um, and then, you know, the results, you know, uh on the academy side, you know, we've we do surveys every year, like what are people doing? Um, and not everyone answers the survey, but of the people that did answer the survey, you know, 40% of them are working in the arts, you know, so long history of um actually graduating people that end up doing great things um in the arts after that. And then the last thing I would say is we do things that I think other high schools just don't do. So um this coming March, um we're taking, I think it's like 150 kids across all um disciplines, um, you know, and a lot of them are musicians. And we're gonna go to starting in Interlaken, uh uh, we go to Detroit, we go to Philly, we go to Boston, and we have our kids that are playing side by side with um the BSO, Boston Symphony Orchestra, the Detroit Symphony Orchestra, Philadelphia Orchestra, playing with Yo-Yo Ma. Um, and they're doing a composition by Wynton Marsalis. So um, and a lot of this, you know, comes from our president Trey Debbie, is able to kind of organize all of this. So I don't think there's any other um high school that that does that sort of thing.

SPEAKER_00: 6:33

No, wow, that's a I did read about that actually, about that tour. Um, and I'm glad that you you mentioned it because it looked fascinating. And I thought, wow, okay. I mean, as we all know, to to make something like that work, you've got to be able to have the connections, right? And so, you know, with your president being who your president is, that allows that to happen, that sort of solicitation into that kind of pathway. Um, that's wonderful. It just creates opportunity to people, and then those students then get to experience that and then have a safe footing into the world from that. Wonderful.

SPEAKER_01: 7:06

No, that's a great, great way to put it. And it's interesting, you know, when you watch these kids, and you know, often I'll I'll see a performance, a musical theater performance on campus, you almost forget that these are high school kids because they're they're that talented, you know. So it's it's really a wonderful place to be.

SPEAKER_00: 7:22

Wow, that's lovely. Well, let's let's let's talk a little bit more about music education, Mike. Have you have you noticed um kind of any differences, you know, in how Gen Z learn compared to previous generations?

SPEAKER_01: 7:37

Yeah, so I can speak about this from a couple of different angles. You know, I I'm on the marketing and admission side. I don't teach at Interlock, but I have taught um, you know, for many years at at Berkeley Online. Um I did some um kind of adjunct teaching at Northeastern University, all within the music business. And uh a couple of things I would say, um, or maybe I can kind of point to like a story of where it kind of hit me that this is a real thing. Um I was lecturing, um, and I know that you do a fair amount of this too, in front of 36 kids at Northeastern. And it was my first time doing this. I had taught online for a long time, but I wanted to give it a shot because I love, you know, music business education. You know, it's um just an interest and a passion of mine. So um there is a lot of work that goes into um creating curriculum. And at the time I was thinking in a lecture to 36 kids that goes for an hour and a half. Um I forget if it was once or twice a week. But I remember being um in front of the kids at Northeastern and, you know, essentially lecturing about, you know, merch or something like that, right? And I'm like, hey, you know, I I used to work at a record label, you know, I work with artists, you know, and this is kind of how things are. And it was very um, I would say I was taken the position of like, hey, let me tell you a thing or two. And I could tell I was losing them, you know, like it just it wasn't working. Um, and or it wasn't connecting, you know, in the way that I remembered being lectured to, you know, when I was in college, right? Um, so then I kind of thought, I'm like, am I like doing this correctly, you know? And a couple of thoughts was um, you know, with this generation that I don't know how old you are, I'm I'm 51, you know. So when I was in college, I I, you know, if I think the internet existed, but I hadn't seen it, you know, it was, it was, it was totally different. Um so um now with with and I have two of them myself, two kids that are in this age, where you know, the digital native thing, it's it's a real thing. And I think um you have to get to where the kids are, you know, meaning um uh where I would lecture for 30 minutes or I was comfortable with that as I was a student, that that is no longer it. It's you know short form, visual, uh it's it's um, you know, interactive, it's working together, it's finding communities where they can work together online. And I would say um one, you know, Interlockin has a wonderful online school that's about three years old now. And one of the real benefits to um, you know, online education for kids, and I'm not saying that it's it's the right thing for everybody, but I do think there's a lot of benefits to Gen Z where you know it's it's asynchronous. Um, you can work on your own time. I think that's another component to Gen Z. It's like, hey, I want to do this when I want, you know? Um, and you can have online a lot of like interactive components and rooms where where kids can kind of uh again be more collaborative and interactive than just uh like when I was growing up just being lectured at, you know?

SPEAKER_00: 10:51

Very interesting. Um that was a really good answer. I really appreciate it because it's quite a difficult one to answer in some ways, but it's a really, really fascinating subject. Um, you know, they're a generation that I talk about quite a lot on the podcast because they are the next generation, and um, and it's uh, you know, I I I'm by the way, you look great for 51, by the way, Mike. I've got to say that.

SPEAKER_01: 11:11

Oh, that's nice. Yeah, thank you.

SPEAKER_00: 11:14

I'm 46, so I'm kind of in that same uh age category, if you will, and it's really interesting uh being in this age category and kind of observing, you know, the generation that's kind of after us that are the the the the next gen, um, and then the generation beyond us, and there's us in the middle, and we kind of see both ways and have lived through both worlds, if you like. And uh it it's fascinating.

SPEAKER_01: 11:38

It it it really is uh we are we really are on like the bubble, I think. Maybe you a little bit more than me, but that like you're like what are you like late millennial? I I'm still Gen X, I think I'm right in the middle of it, but like you're I'm Gen X as well, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 11:50

Oh, you are okay, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 11:52

So yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 11:53

Yeah, I grew up without internet and all that kind of stuff, and you know, it's uh it's it's fascinating, it really is. Yeah, um so you you mentioned um Berkeley earlier. You spent, am I right and saying almost 20 years working at Berkeley College of Music?

SPEAKER_01: 12:06

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 12:07

Okay, so so you you you authored uh music marketing, right? I did. Um press promotion, distribution, and retail. That did that that wow, that's that well done. That's amazing. Um it's really, really wonderful. I'm very familiar with the resource. Um, had you noticed um at that time that you did that, that the industry was starting to shift at that time. Then you did you therefore kind of spot and say, Hey, you know, we need something here to kind of anchor our learning around.

SPEAKER_01: 12:35

Yeah, so there's there's a a few ways to um talk about this, and you almost have to go back in like the way back machine to um uh remember what it was like when I wrote that book in 2007, I think is when I wrote it initially, you know, and updated it since. Um, but in 2007, uh, you know, like YouTube just started. Um and you know, the I think the most kind of meaningful thing back then uh was the idea that, and it's almost it sounds quaint now, um you could um do a lot of what a record label did uh on your own. And the tools were just evolving, right? Um uh to be able to do that. And, you know, I worked um, and it's some of my fondest memories like professionally. I worked at um a few record labels um in the late 90s, early 2000s. The one that I worked at the longest, which I I just love and I keep in touch with the people that I worked with there, was called Rico Disc. And they were um, you know, Frank Zappa was out through Riko Disc and David Bowie and Elvis Costello, we had some licensing deals. Um so uh, you know, back in those days, um, and people kind of forget this, um, there really was, you know, you there were a lot more gatekeepers, um, and you know, physical distribution was uh a thing. And uh unless you had a label deal, you couldn't do it. And, you know, I had the you know, I started my my work at Racodisc in the finance department, which was kind of a cool thing because you could see how deals were made, and you could see how royalties worked. And um the deals, and I'm just saying this about Raico Disc, but like just generally at record labels, they're tough. You know, you get an advance, you have to pay back that advance until you see any money, you know. So going back to your question about the book and like what was happening at that point was you were just starting to see some of these tools, like um, I could be getting the dates wrong, but like CD baby was an early option for people that wanted to self-distribute their music, you know. Um, the ability for you to pretty easily create your own website and optimize your website, that that was just starting, you know. Physical retail, um, it's still a thing even now. Uh certainly online retail, you know, is you know, much more I don't say important but prevalent and all of that. But like, you know, um, you know, you can work consignment to get in retail. So um that to me in 2007, eight, like that sort of period, 2009, things were changing a lot and a lot of new tools. And I would say after I wrote that book, um I created some online courses uh for Berkeley that that still exist um at Berkeley Online that sort of like build on top of that idea. And I I looked at your background and I think we we have some similarities in terms of how we approach the music business. Yeah. Yeah, but it's very reassuring.

SPEAKER_00: 15:34

Thanks, Mike.

SPEAKER_01: 15:35

Oh, yeah, yeah. I felt the same way looking at you. I'm like, okay, you know. Um but uh yeah, anyways, it's it's interesting when, you know, not to go back to like the age thing, but things kind of like, you know, um go in cycles a little bit. And there was this incredible optimism um for um, I would say direct-to-fan, that idea uh where artists didn't necessarily need a label. And there were a lot of tools that started back in the day. A lot of them kind of flamed out. Um, uh, and there are new tools now uh that help artists kind of do um uh, you know, what uh a label traditionally did, fully understanding that there's definitely a label, it's definitely the right option for certain artists at certain points in their career, and the label can do a lot of things that an artist can't do um on their own, you know, or they have the connections, they have the money, that sort of thing. But um I feel like it kind of cyclically, if that's a word, like um 2009, 10, 11, 12, all of these tools existing, and they've kind of like um that that world has sort of become a little smaller, I think. Um, you know, some kind of cream rises to the top, some tools are still out there, a lot of great distributors, online distributors that exist that do a whole lot of you know other things. But then, you know, kind of the tools have sort of uh skinnyed a little bit. And I feel like we're getting back into a period of like, you know, optimism with um artists being able to do a lot of things on their own, you know. Um at least that's how I see it, but a lot answer of I think there was a lot of things happening in the like early mid-2000s, and that's kind of what the book was covering.

SPEAKER_00: 17:14

Yeah, you know, it's really interesting because a lot of the things that that were in there um really still stack up now. Um, and I know you've done updates and and whatnot too, but it it makes sense to me because well, I looked at that and then I saw the the courses, you know, and the modules and stuff that you created, and um they're still in existence, and I think there's a lot to be said for that because um what you created then in you know 2007, 2008 has serious legs. There's a lot of stuff in there that was that was right and still stands up, you know.

SPEAKER_01: 17:45

That's nice to say, yeah, yeah, it's true.

SPEAKER_00: 17:48

It's uh I I I really uh commend you for that, you know. Um I mean talking of you know on on the the marketing side of things, because you know, as you mentioned, you've been heavily involved with a lot of marketing campaigns over the years through your work at record companies. Um there any particular sort of exciting sort of tactics that you've witnessed on campaign rollouts?

SPEAKER_01: 18:08

I I love this question because it allows me to answer a different question. Um but I'll I'll answer this question too. Sure, sure. So um I the way that I think about marketing is um it's it's almost um uh a lot of it is kind of like operational almost, like getting a framework together. Um and there's um you know that idea of like you know, strategy and tactics. And um, you know, I think that there are flashy tactics, which I could talk about that that are cool and and um you know good. But like for me, it's um having that base, you know. So, you know, going back to the book, like I I really like the idea of like a fully integrated campaign for marketing. So, like, what does that mean? Um, so I I love the idea of um capturing um permission-based contacts, whether that's an email address or you know, um social follow, that sort of thing. And um a lot of your marketing working to increase that permission-based contact list that you have, because it's you know, expensive and hard to always find new people and to communicate with people, and it's inexpensive and kind of easy to communicate with people that are in your community, right? So, like I I think maybe a um if if I was to give any advice, for example, it's like, all right, be sure when you're you know when you're marketing yourself, you've got the basics covered, right? So um you have a website. Um number one, and above anything with marketing, you are exceptional, you know, like your craft is good, like people want what you're doing, you know. Uh, but then you have a website together, you have a a strategy for communication, and like almost like you know. Know, and this is the thing that's kind of unique. Understanding like the, you know, what drives your community, the psychographic of that community, and like why are they into you? And trying to kind of work that back and having this sort of loop between you and your community, I think is really important, and kind of leveraging all tools to do that, if if if that makes sense. Um yeah, the exciting stuff that I would say and kind of aligns to that. So um, you know, uh, there's a bunch of like ex examples of things that sort of align to this, but I'll give you a a good one that I've always kind of talked about because I think it's like very fitting to um an artist creating something for their own fan base, which also helps to like um build up their permission-based contacts. Um, you know the band Sigar Ross?

SPEAKER_02: 20:51

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01: 20:51

You know, okay. So um the lead um singer and guitar player, I think he pronounced his name, Yonzi, um, he did a project with his partner, Alex, um, called Yonzi and Alex, which I saw a few years back in Boston. They're just absolutely incredible. Um, they uh created a like a downloadable like vegan cookbook, right? So you might say, well, what the heck does that have to do with um music or marketing? Or like what you know, why would you do that? And I think it's so smart because they identified like a shared um characteristic between what they value and what their fans value, right? And offered this kind of like neat, interesting thing that was outside of kind of the normal stuff, which is like, hey, here's a new track, or you know, it's almost like um uh when you're marketing, you don't always want to be upselling what you're doing. You want to provide some value. Um, and this like downloadable vegan cookbook acted as a way for them to expand their contact list to people that, you know, hey, I know um Yonzi from Sigaross, but geez, this is kind of cool. Like I downloaded it and it made some of the, you know, macadamia uh dip, you know, macadamia nut dip. Like it was actually a really cool piece. But I just thought that was so smart because it kind of went beyond um like a kitschy marketing thing. It was like a very cool way to align with the their community. That's so that that might be one example, but like just going like a little deeper, you know?

SPEAKER_00: 22:26

Yeah, that's that's really because actually some of the most exciting things are things that are not necessarily linked to here's the music, go and consume it, you know. So it's like here's something else. And by the way, you know, um that's really, and I presume I mean, I I I is was that like an organic thing, or was that kind of like a strategic thing? I would imagine organic, right? Just something that you know that they wanted to do anyway?

SPEAKER_01: 22:52

It's tough to know because um if it was organic, it couldn't be any more strategic. You know what I mean? Like it was so it was so smart. Um, but like, and sometimes it's like um this is like a uh a core thing. And when I think about like um, all right, there's AI in music, you know, and what's it gonna look like in you know five years? Is it just gonna be, you know, AI um musicians we listen to? And like I I don't think so. I mean, maybe that that's something with um, you know, um uh you know, film music or so I I I actually don't know. But for for me, and I think for a lot of people, um, it's about like understanding and like really um, you know, that emotional connection you have between you and an artist, right? Like the actual, you know, the the person, the human, the artist, you know. So um if if they did this as just like a human thing, it totally hit, you know? And the another example, um uh a band that I like a lot named Boards of Canada. And a while back, and you can only do this if you've got like a super committed community, um, because it's actually like counterintuitive to marketing. I think they were putting out like a double record. And, you know, somebody asked them, hey, are you gonna be putting out a double record? And they're like, Yes. And then on social media, they had all of this like cryptic codes and different things, and I think it drove people to like Discord servers and all of this stuff. And I loved it because it was like, you know, their fans are so interested in what they're doing, want to be involved. And they created, like, you know, almost a puzzle where you had to go here and you had to do something and the whole community was involved trying to figure it out. And once you figured it out over here, it drove you to another site where you had to figure something else out. So, like, I guess it speaks to like what I said earlier. Like the core of it is if you can understand um what your fans, what's really driving them out outside of just the music part, and this could actually go go badly too, um, where if you don't understand um your fan base and you kind of take a left turn and your fans are like, what's this all about? You know, um, like when I was at Reiko Disc, we signed a band that um I would say, and I don't say this in a derogatory way, but they were they were like a jam band, you know? And they were awesome and I loved them. But they were kind of very um, they didn't want to be lumped into that uh world. Um so the marketing that they wanted to do like just didn't hit the right people, you know what I mean? Because they were like, it's so you have to really understand like what does your community want? Not what do I want my community to know about me. It's like how do I, you know, um get to where my fans are at.

SPEAKER_00: 25:44

Interesting. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Do you know, um, you know what I said earlier about about you know your your academic work, your your your published um, you know, your book and then and how it kind of links to so many it's so true, and I you know, as you were talking then, it kind of made me think of like uh you know, in a in an age where so many music creators try and uh chase their own tail by looking for trends and following trends, and and and I get it, and uh certain it makes sense on a very short-term level, but actually the principles of what you're referring to are completely transferable from sort of a genre to genre to time period to another one, you know. I mean, I was just thinking when you were saying that a few moments ago about you know what you said about the framework of marketing stuff. It's like imagine then being um I don't know, um let's say a metal band um that feels the need to have to create a a dance or something silly on TikTok because they feel like they have to fit in, and actually, yeah, you know, the people that would be very interested in what they do might actually be, you know, on a on a Discord server, you know, talking about gaming or something instead. And and you know, there might be that the bass player says, Oh, I love gaming, yeah, I'd much rather do that. And it's like, yeah, that's marketing, right? That's that's it. That's marketing without marketing.

SPEAKER_01: 27:02

No, that that's totally it. And the other thing is, um you particularly if you're doing it on your own, or say you have a very small team, you have limited resources, so you can't be everywhere all the time. And you want to like it's it's much more effective to like communicate to a smaller group of people that are more predisposed to being into what you're doing than a larger group, and this speaks to any type of marketing, you know. I love the specificity of marketing, but to you know, find a large group of people where like they're not really into what you're doing, you know. So, like, how do you find those pockets, those communities um that again are almost predisposed to being into what you're doing?

SPEAKER_00: 27:39

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good point. Yeah. Um, I mean, it's probably easier to kind of uh to try and understand that more now with the amount of um data that's out there. Um it's probably easier to tap into uh into that. Um but that's that's fascinating. I really appreciate your insight on that because you know I know you're this, you know, this education guy and you've done this and that, but all of it's underpinned by what you've achieved as a marketeer, you know. So there's a wealth of knowledge there that's that's really um I really appreciate you talking about those things. Oh thank you, Jenny. Yeah. Um finally, um, what what type what tips would you give, Mike, to you know, to emerging music creators who are kind of right at the beginning of their careers, bearing in mind that actually marketing is very often the biggest stumbling block for some people, or how do I get this out there? Are there any things that you think here's here's here's some nuggets of information that might be useful at the beginning of that journey?

SPEAKER_01: 28:35

Definitely. Um, so I I can start with like kind of a a what not to do and then back into like what what to do. Right. So one one thing I see a lot is um folks that are um trying to um sell before they're ready. And what I mean by that is either before um they're ready, like with their actual craft, like being really good at what you do, um, or before they have any community to sell to. So uh, you know, with some of the courses I um I wrote at Berkeley, you know, I would have students and I'd be talking about these different tactics, you know, and sometimes they just weren't there yet, you know. So they're like, hey, um, you know, I I started a direct-to-fan campaign and like it's not moving. And I would, you know, say, all right, like tell me about, you know, um, who's your base, you know, like uh, you know, how many people, um, how often are you engaging with them, you know, what do they look like? And they're like, I, you know, don't really have that yet, you know. So it's like I think the number one tip is obviously again, this is something I think about a lot for for new artists. It's um, you know, you have to be like really exceptional because everyone has limited time. And if I'm going to be listening to something on Apple Music, you know, for me, it's like, okay, um, do I want to listen to, you know, Jeff Buckley Grace, or do I want to check out this new artist? And, you know, it it's like that at that level. You have to be, you have to be really, really good, you know. So um for it to happen and for for marketing to work and for sales to work. So, you know, be really, really good. Um, don't lead with the hard sell. Um, work probably for a while on creating and engaging with your community. So, you know, you have somebody to sell with. I I still feel like kind of going back to what we were saying earlier about the importance of like being a human being and that sort of thing. Um, you know, I I you know, not uh, you know, there's a whole whole lot of different you know types of music and all that, but being able to um do um what you do live at a high level is a good idea because I think there's so many people out there that are just like admiring of the folks that can actually do this, and particularly it seeing it live is a big deal. And even like electronic music, um I saw Kruder and Dorfmeister not too long ago, and their, you know, a duo that I think their peak was probably in the 90s, but they were recreating one of their kind of um electronic records, but they did it with live musicians, and I'm like, this is like one of the greatest things I've ever seen, you know. So, you know, being able to like, you know, perform, I think is is a big thing. So there's there's all of that. Um, but and I know you've spoken a little bit about this too. Um if you are lucky enough, and I I will use those words, um, to get interest from a label. Um and like I said earlier, sometimes a label is the right option. Like you've you've built up a thing, you want a team to help you with, you know, these other things that a label can um be good at, be very careful about um, you know, the rights, you know, because when you look at um, just to you know put this in kind of real perspective, like there's a lot of um folks that are really um down on um Spotify payouts, you know, very common, you know, for the last 15 years that's been a topic for people to discuss. Those payouts change a whole lot if you own all your rights and and it, you know, the label isn't taking a cut, you know, like that sort of thing. So I and I'm not saying um uh, you know, in order to um access some of what a label does, like you're gonna have to give up some of what you're doing, that sort of thing. But like if you have the ability to maintain your rights down the line, I think things open up for you uh a little bit more on the revenue side. So that that would be that would be some some tips.

SPEAKER_00: 32:43

That's that's that's uh that's gold dust. That's really good advice. Um especially around rights, right? Because you know, um there's not always the um You know, when you start out and you're making music, you're not thinking about those things, right? You're thinking about all the other stuff, and um, and then there's always a pattern, isn't there, in an artist's career where later on, you know, it comes to the rights, and oh I know, I didn't realize about that. And so yeah, it's really, really important to think about those things uh early on. They don't feel like sexy subjects to think about early on, but they know I know.

SPEAKER_01: 33:17

And the other thing is like I love the work that you're doing, and we again do similar stuff in kind of different modalities. I mean, I truly love what you're doing. So for anyone that's like listening, there's so many resources, you know, to kind of get up to speed with this stuff. So not understanding um how publishing works as an example is kind of no longer an option. Like it's not, it's not there's there's a lot of resources out there. So yeah, I guess maybe that would be my last one is um, you know, understand the the business side. There's a lot. I mean, back in the day, I um, you know, I don't know if I I think it's still helpful, but the um the Passman book. Um yeah. Um yeah, you know, I I actually, when I was at the record label, you know, the CFO had it in his um bookshelf. I had it, you know, sort of looking about. Yeah, oh yeah, totally. Um but that was that was what it was like 20 years ago. But like now, I guess the only trick is like, all right, is this person actually right? Like finding the right um resource to really fill you in. But there's there's a lot of like very well-known uh resources out there to kind of help you understand how things work.

SPEAKER_00: 34:23

Yeah. Oh yeah, yeah. Do you know so many people refer to Passman's work as like the gold standard of like the business of music? And um, you know, it's hard to argue with it. I mean, the first time I ever read like, I mean, there's been so many iterations now, right? But the first time I ever read it, I remember feeling quite daunted, you know, by it. You know, just like especially, I guess because the uh, you know, especially in in America, because there's you know the sub Supreme Courts of Justice and all these different layers to litigation. And man, I was like, wow, God, this is complex. What am I getting into here?

SPEAKER_01: 35:00

You know. Oh, I know. And I I think in part, like some of that stuff is intentionally complex. Like, if if there's anybody that could tell me, um, hey, my song just got played on the radio, what am I gonna get? Like, it's impossible. You know what I mean? Like some of that stuff, it's just so uber complex. Um, like the tracking of it and and all of that. So I yeah, I I think he did such a good job back. And I actually interviewed him one time for one of my courses. Um, you should you should reach out to him. He's a super nice guy. Um and you know, I think he he was like, you know, REM's uh lawyer and stuff. I mean, he's like real, real deal. Um, so yeah, I I um I have his book right behind me. So I I do sometimes refer back to that. Um, but anyways, yeah, there's tons of resources where you should never be caught um um kind of like with the core stuff, at least having a base understanding of like, all right, this is this is kind of how it works. Some of the more nuanced stuff, like um, yeah, I don't know. I mean, again, I think you talk about this, but like, you know, the royalty splits. I mean, there's some stuff that gets like a little hairy, you know. Um, but but generally speaking, um, you should be able to understand the basics of the of the business pretty easily. There's enough resources out there.

SPEAKER_00: 36:11

That makes a lot of sense. I mean, there are certain nuances that are different, you know, between different cultures, different jurisdictions, but the bare bones of copyright principles are basically the same throughout the world. That's what I always think. It's just how they're collected on can be a little different with different societies and whatnot. But um, but yeah, no, that's uh that makes a lot of sense. Uh Mike, you I feel I I feel like you're a kindred spirit, man. We're like we're we're singing from the same hymn sheet.

SPEAKER_01: 36:39

Oh, yeah, no, likewise, yeah. Yeah, it's it's really great to get to know you. And uh again, I love the work that you're doing.

SPEAKER_00: 36:44

Uh likewise, you too, man. You know, I mean it's really nice, you know. And I've I've referred to like your work before and Berkeley Press and all that kind of stuff. I'm like, I you know, this is it. I you know, I was really excited about talking to you, and uh uh I'm really glad that we've got the time to have this chat. You're a you're uh you are what we call in the UK a good egg, right? So uh yeah, I really thank you so much. Yeah, I really appreciate it. Yeah, top man. Thank you so much. Ah, what a dude. Um I hope he knew what I meant when I said good egg, by the way, because I don't know if that means much in Michigan, but uh where I come from, it's a compliment. Um a really, really great guy. Do you know it it's interesting, everybody? I know I mentioned his um one of the one of the books that he's authored there, Music Marketing, it's a fantastic book. Um it's so interesting to think about uh you know, it's easy to get caught up, right, in the latest, greatest platforms and what the algorithms are doing and what they're changing to, and we can end up chasing their own tail if we're not careful with it. Yes, it's important. No, I'm not undervaluing it, but the values, the core values of strong marketing haven't really actually changed that much. Um, and that's what I was kind of alluding to there because a lot of the things uh that Mike talks about in that book uh were not only true at the time but have gone on to become even more true as time has gone on. Um, it's easy sometimes to look at a book and go, oh, that came out in 2008, that's gonna be old hat now. No, it isn't, believe you me. It was bang on the money and it still is. Uh, anyway, just a part of uh Mike's great legacy in his career. Um, I appreciate you being here, everybody. I hope you found that useful. I know I certainly enjoyed talking to Mike, and as always, I learned more than a thing or two. I hope you did too. Have a great day until next time, everybody. May the force be with you.

SPEAKER_02: 38:33

The music, business study. The music, business study.