Episode 81: Sonic Branding and Storytelling with Erik Reiff

What if three notes could carry an entire story? I sit down with Erik Reiff, CCO of Black Cat White Cat Music, to unpack how composers build sonic identities for global brands and screens without losing the soul of the music. From Nike to sci‑fi dramas, Erik shows how a tight brief, a clear arc, and a few perfectly chosen sounds can do the heavy lifting that visuals alone can’t.

We dig into the real difference between scoring long‑form narratives and crafting short‑form hooks for social feeds, where you have seconds to win attention. Erik breaks down why space and simplicity matter, how motifs travel across formats, and when to reach for a preset versus invent a new texture from scratch. He shares the hidden skill that powers great work under pressure: taste. The ability to select, place, and pace sounds quickly is often more valuable than reinventing the synth wheel, especially when deadlines loom and the mix must land fast.

Erik’s journey from touring songwriter to agency co‑owner reveals how craft evolves with collaboration. He talks candidly about translating directors’ language into musical choices, building daily feedback loops with artists, and using empathy to align on tone when references are vague. Along the way we explore resilience, celebrating failures, and borrowing inspiration from chefs, athletes, and even accountants who solve problems with their own creative logic. If you’re a composer, producer, or brand leader curious about sonic branding, storytelling, and working smarter under constraints, this conversation offers field‑tested insights you can use today.

Enjoy the episode, share it with a friend who loves music and film, and leave a review to help more creators find the show. Subscribe for more deep dives into the craft and business of music.

https://www.bwcatmusic.com

https://www.instagram.com/blackcatwhitecat_music

Chapters

• 0:15 Welcome And Guest Introduction
• 0:51 Eric’s Background And Agency Scope
• 2:36 What Sonic Branding Really Means
• 4:55 Soundtracks Versus Social Campaigns
• 9:05 Space, Simplicity, And Bonsai
• 15:46 Sound Design, Presets, And Originality
• 19:09 Working With Directors And Translating Vision
• 25:11 From Touring Artist To Agency Co‑Owner
• 31:56 Collaboration, Taste, And Relationship Building

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:15

Welcome to you. You're listening to the music business buddy with me, Jolly Annie Mods Podcasting out of Birmingham in England. I'm the author of the book, The Music Business for Music Creators, available in hardback, paperback and ebook format. I'm a music creator with a variety of credits as a writer-producer. I'm a consultant, an artist manager, and a senior lecturer in both music business and music creation. Wherever you are and whatever you do, consider yourself welcome to this podcast and to a part of this community. I'm here to try and educate and inspire music creators from all over the world in their quest to achieving their goals by gaining a greater understanding of the business of music. Okay, in this week's episode, I am talking to Eric Reef, the co-owner of the globally successful music agency Black Cat White Cat. Now, Black Cat White Cat as an agency have composers based all over the world, and together they create soundtracks for television and for social media advertisements and for brands such as Sony, Coleman, Nike, and many more. Now, before his days at Black Cat White Cat, Eric worked as a creative producer, directing and producing music for global brands like Uniqlo, Nissan, Audi. He also won numerous awards, including the Cannes Lions Grand Prix, Clio and AdFest. As a former touring artist, lyricist, and producer, he is passionate about lifting up growing artists and giving back to the creative community. As an international music agency based in Japan, Black Cat White Cat have a unique perspective on producing, editing, and storytelling. Now, one of the things that really grabs you about Eric in this particular interview is how supportive he is to other people. Also, bear in mind that a lot of the stuff that he does is, you know, hugely complex. But actually, he has a very simplistic outlook on things. He's very kind, he's warm, he's gentle, he's a joyful and prosperous guy to talk to. I hope you enjoy the interview and enjoy some of the things that he says. He's got some great philosophies, and his simplicity is just beautiful and infectious. So I shall play the interview with Eric. Here we go. Eric, welcome to the music business, buddy. Um, I I really admire your work, and it's good to have you here. First and foremost, how are you?

SPEAKER_02: 2:30

I'm good, mate. Thank you very much for having me.

SPEAKER_00: 2:32

Oh, not at all. I'm really, really, really pleased that you're here with me. Um, so let's let's begin by understanding the discipline and the art form of kind of musical and brand alignment. For anybody that's kind of less familiar with that kind of concept, could you tell me a little bit about the role of like sonic branding and what it means?

SPEAKER_02: 2:56

I think sonic branding comes to play with it, but really, especially when it comes to like the discipline and art form of like musical and brand alignment, what you're talking about really is about um what is the storytelling of that brand? And what is the storytelling of that sonic branding that you also want to say? You know, as musicians, like we always come across as like, you know, what is like, especially from like a songwriting perspective, you have a let's say, you know, a st a story arc, or even within symphonies, you have a story arc. That also, for from how I see it, it also comes across within brands and within commercials or sonic branding, a sonic branding of a whole brand and like a musical image of a brand within five notes, not you know, it's it's nothing. So, how do you kind of take that storytelling of what the brand means and how do you find the right notes and the right sounds that can elevate that brand and actually can also tell that story within a few amount of seconds? Does that make sense?

SPEAKER_00: 3:56

Superbly explained because I'm asking you to try and explain the impossible thing to explain, and you just did it. Um do you know what I was just thinking about when you said that was um I I love Star Wars, right? So um I you know, I mean who doesn't, right? Uh and I I I love the uh the Mandalorian TV show, and I love what they do. Every time the Mandalorian appears in a shot, they have like this kind of like maybe like a three-note little sequence uh where he just it's so subtle, but it's so interesting because you just if you if you look away and you just know when he's there because of that little it's I think it's like three notes or something, and it kind of sounds like a like a like an exp like an electronic interpretation of like a kind of cowboy sound, you know.

SPEAKER_02: 4:42

Yes, like a Clint Eastwood film, exactly. Yeah, like woo-woo woo kind of thing, right?

SPEAKER_00: 4:47

Yeah, yeah. Um, I mean, you know, something so short must have taken so long to kind of come up with, you know. Um, so that's uh but what about then? Um so kind of can you explain the kind of the creative difference between say composing for soundtracks compared to composing music for say like a social media campaign? You know, presumably it's the same skills, but you're just kind of fitting it in a different way, right?

SPEAKER_02: 5:14

Yes, exactly what you said. It's more about trying to fit uh the same puzzle pieces in a different type of puzzle. So going back to that whole storytelling idea, like we always want to tell a story with music. So when you have like a soundtrack, you have a lot more time to develop themes, you have a lot more time to use, you know, music theory, different production techniques, um, different things like that to kind of get that story across and take the listener with you to a different place, especially as the toast story progresses, whether it's through a game or whether it's through, let's say, a TV series, or whether it's through, you know, a full feature-length film. And then once it comes to things like social media campaigns, you really only have like the three, four seconds that you have to kind of get people, you know, hooked before they swipe left, especially on the YouTube vids or like, you know, even on Instagram, um, things like that. Like you only have it, like the attention span right now is so short that you don't like you would never be able to, I don't think you would ever be able to have a hit like Dark Side of the Moon in this day and age. I don't think people would have the time for that. So then, you know, how do you actually then take those certain melodic ideas, like we were just saying with The Mandalorian, and kind of like reinterpret that also whether it's gonna work within the brand or if it's gonna work within the story of what that uh social media campaign or even commercial wants to say. Because everyone always has they always have something that they want to say, but they it's our job to really take that and put a musical spin on it and actually also also maybe even change how people interpret that brand through three, four notes. And I think that's the really the power of sound, and people always forget that. You know, when you're writing for let's say if you're writing an album, if you're writing for yourself or anything like that, like it's really about self-expression, self-expression, self-expression, you know, find this right snare sound that really makes you feel a certain way, find the right mix from the mic positions, so on and so forth. But when you're especially talking to or working with a lot of people who maybe don't have that musical background, but have definitely a very strong creative input in what they want to hear, then it's also about like translating in a weird way. A friend of mine in Estonia, we were talking about this and how creativity can be very misconstrued in in many different ways because you know, when you're working on a record like you have they say it's a blank canvas and there are no rules. But what we were saying is that it's actually better to have rules because then you without the boundaries, then you can't push the boundaries. And I think that's something that what I love about I don't know if this is actually pertaining to the question anymore, but it's actually you know pushing pushing certain boundaries of what you can do within a social media campaign or within a soundtrack, and how do you those those are the boundaries that are set by whoever is you're working with, so on and so forth. So yeah, I think that's that's could be a major difference. It's also just how much of a blank page you have to work with and and how big that page is and how much you want to paint over it or use things like that. I mean, you were talking about uh doing bonsai. Can I mention this by the way? Yeah, of course. Um you were talking about like, you know, doing bonsai stuff, right? Yeah. So like like looking at bonsai trees, and I'm always more interested not in the tree itself, but how do you use the space in between things rather than the actual tree itself? So it also comes to like like that comes to music as well. And when you come to social media companies, you don't have enough space within the music because you only have what five, six seconds to kind of get the attention. But when you have a soundtrack, then you have so much space to work with. And how do you actually use that space to attract the listener or keep make sure that that theme, thematic side of things is keeps alive?

SPEAKER_00: 8:57

Absolutely superb explanation. Um, I love it, I love that analogy as well. Um, it's um, I mean, it must be difficult. What about the sound design of things? Because some people are, you know, um let okay, so I'll give you an example, right? It's a good friend of mine, very successful music producer, and he uh he he has no interest in sound design, right? But he's a kick-ass producer. And I'll say to him, Oh, where are these sounds that you're getting from? And he'll be like, they're just presets, you know. And like, and and he kind of really downplays it. And I'll say, Yeah, but like you are so fast at selecting sounds, like your ability as a kind of sound selector uh is superb, but your ability as a sound designer is not so high, but that's because you're not interested in it, right? When that's okay, because we're in an age where we can pick patches very easily and work with them. Is there like an emphasis? Is there is there like a pressure on you to have to kind of create unique sounds within things rather than just kind of just the music theory side? We know there's like a link, beautiful link between theory and and emotion when it comes to sort of you know music theory and stuff. But what about the sound design side? Do you have constantly feel under pressure to have to kind of create new sounds?

SPEAKER_02: 10:12

That's a really good question. I think when you start um working, especially when within like commercials or like you know, social media campaigns, it doesn't necessarily uh you don't really have the time to think about sounds. Um, because a lot of the artists that I work with, like a lot of it is just it's like muscle memory, you know, like you know which preset to go to, you know which will work, you know, like if you go into like a certain preset that this sound will work with this sound and the mix will be faster, and you know it it kind of comes back to that whole music theory thing. But when you're starting to kind of work with soundtracks, especially if it's let's say we were working on uh science fiction, kind of sci-fi-e uh TV drama here in Japan, um that was like what do what kind of sounds can we create, or what kind of sounds can we excuse my French, fuck up, um, to make it kind of work within that world of where this story takes place. And then that that you know gives us a little bit more creative freedom on what we can do. And also the director was very, very supportive and lovely about that. And he was just like, you know, if you guys feel like a certain sound belongs here, then do that. You know, is that what you mean by sound design, by the way? Or do you actually mean the sound design of the like like people hitting each other kind of sound design?

SPEAKER_00: 11:24

Yeah, it could be foley or synthesis or creative sampling or whatever it might be. But that's that you've you've hit on something very interesting there because um like the idea, like you're working in partnership, especially let's say, for example, a soundtrack, and you've maybe you've got a director that's got a vision and a time scale in mind. And um, you know, do you find that there is a lot of leeway, you know, on the music side, or you know, or is it more a case of like really honing into somebody's vision and then fitting inside that? Or is it a bit of both? Does it vary?

SPEAKER_02: 11:57

I think it varies a lot. I think depending on every director or everyone you work with, everyone has a different creative process, right? Um, that would be the same with me, that would be the same with yourself as well. Like, you know, how we start, let's say, a song. Do we start with the melody? Do we start with the tempo? Do we start with a chord sequence? You know, sometimes you start with different things, and it's you know, you sometimes you start with the melody, sometimes you start with the tempo. Same thing with the directors, like, okay, what is their vision? Are they more of a visual person? Are they more of an audio person? Are they more of like, you know, someone like uh who's famous that works really well with James Gunn, for instance? He's very, very well known for kind of, you know, finding the music and then working the scene around that track, right? Yeah. Um and like how do you find those, how do you find that common denominator, if you will, with with each director or the person that you're working with? What what is the common language that you can speak that you can get your point across? Because some directors will, you know, throw out like obscure references, you know, some kind of you know, Frank Zappa record that you've never heard of, you know, so on and so forth. And then and then you'll have other people who just like, oh, we we kind of like this this overall sound is like, and then it's like, how do you then translate that and then start to to dig and and find what they're actually looking for and be able to communicate that? Yeah. Um that that makes sense. Uh but it's it's very similar to working with artists too, I think. Right. Because you're you're even if you're speaking the same musical language, you're still very different people. So it's like, how do you translate what when an artist says, I really want a funky beat? It's like, well, my funky beat is very different to your funky, you know, and then like what is funk to you? Do you know what I mean? And then you start having that conversation and and and having that understanding with each other. It's like building a relationship and seeing how you can work with each other and what vision or audio vision or visual vision that you have together.

SPEAKER_00: 13:47

Yeah, that's a very good point. Um, yeah, it's funny that you mentioned um James Gunn there because um I I'm fascinated by how he will take kind of old songs, I say old songs, songs, you know, recorded music from the 70s, 80s, and then just kind of by changing the visual um to it, you kind of go, how on earth does that 70s disco record fit with a Marvel fight scene? Like, how does that work? But it does. It does.

SPEAKER_02: 14:19

It does. It's the power of music and visuals. Yeah. You can really, you can really change so many things, and people forget that. I mean, that's that's what really has attracted me to what I do now, right? Is like while I love you know working with artists and and just working on the audio side, but like kind of putting that to picture and having a different story and having that communication together, like it's just I don't know. There's for me, there's nothing like it in the world.

SPEAKER_00: 14:45

I I love how you're brilliantly drawing these links between the transferability of composing and producing between, let's say, artists, film, social media, like because I think sometimes people might think, oh, that's like a completely different ball game. And I love it that you're kind of linking those things together. That's uh it kind of helps me to simplify it a little bit, you know.

SPEAKER_02: 15:09

It's I mean, I I relate I relate music making to cooking, um, like making a drink good drink. Like if you have like if you have great players, just the way you could have a great, you know, piece of ham, then already you have the basis of a great meal, you know. And it's like how do you put those two together? And like simplicity is always better. You know, like I see so many um relatable parts within life, like like we were just talking about your butt like boneside trees, even, you know, like because we're all kind of using the same type of brain of how to view it. It's just a a different way of of expression. Because these things are all forms of expression. So how do we express ourselves in different ways? And I think I also not I think I also kind of speak to, you know, actor friends or chef friends or or you know, people who who are very good at snowboarding and how how they kind of view it or how they feel when they go down a hill. It's something I can't do because I'm fucking I can't snowboard for shit. Um, but like, you know, but like how how does their mind work when they when they decide to take a turn and what that feeling is, and then you start to get like different inspiration from different types of people, and then you can always use that within music, which is something that I can relate to. Do you know what I mean?

SPEAKER_00: 16:17

Yeah, perfect. Yeah, you don't need to be able to snowboard to understand what the adrenaline rush might be like and and and and what you can do to assist that storytelling.

SPEAKER_02: 16:28

Yeah. Yeah, because there's always a story to everything. Accountants have great account for me. Accountants are creative as fuck. Because like there are ways that they can use money that I will never be. All I know how to use money is just point the credit card and peep, you know, but you know, like lawyers, like certain just lawyers that are very good at what they do, they find certain ways of arguing. That's a very creative way of thinking, you know, doctors as well. Like there's so many ways to to be creative, and it's not just the people who do do things.

SPEAKER_00: 16:55

I've never thought of it framed that way before, but yeah, yeah, yeah, that's that's very, very true. Um well um composition also kind of uh lends itself well to music supervision in some people, um, and your agency kind of obviously covers both areas. Um at what point does being a composer begin to kind of merge into the role of being a music supervisor?

SPEAKER_02: 17:21

In all honesty, I mean I've I've done a couple of gigs of mu music supervision, but I think it's also just understanding the tone of a piece and it's understanding that story. Yeah, it's all it's all about storytelling. I think my my main thing is really is just how do you tell that story? And that's always what I love about music and you know, and then how I view things is like what what kind of story can we tell, whether it's sound design, whether it's music supervision, um, and being a composer and then looking at music supervision, you have a basis also of how to tell a story, how to create a story. So then you can say, okay, I'm looking for this musical story that works with instant scene, this scene, I just have to find the right track that works there. But then once you find that track, then the difficult thing about music supervision is you know, getting clearing it and then you know getting everything, all the contracts, so on and so forth, and that's that's a complete other ball game.

SPEAKER_00: 18:14

Yeah, yeah, that's a good point. Yeah, that takes some of the fun out of it, I should imagine.

SPEAKER_02: 18:19

Wow, you can find fun in many things. That's what a brilliant answer.

SPEAKER_00: 18:25

Yeah, do you know what? That that's the kind of answer that I give to people. Yeah, and uh yeah, no, I'm I'm I'm glad you said that. Yeah, it's every there's always a reason to smile about no matter what you're doing, isn't there? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 18:36

It's not life or death, you know?

SPEAKER_00: 18:38

Well, yeah. Um, I'd love to ask you about your background, Eric, because you're a former, you know, touring artist, uh, you know, a lyricist, songwriter, producer. Um, what was what's the transition like from that role into what you're doing now? What did that look like for you?

SPEAKER_02: 18:56

Well, how far back do you want me to go?

SPEAKER_00: 18:59

I guess like to the point where, let's say, for example, you know, you've been kind of busy traveling, touring, and then you kind of think, I'm I wanna, because if you're not careful, right, a lot of people can stay on the road, right? And it starts to shape them. And there's a lot of people that kind of go, I can still do a bit of that, but also I want to spend my musical hours doing other things as well, you know, and kind of start to find a different type of balance in their life, for example. Um, and it's different uh stories for different people um in different circumstances, in different points of their lives. And I always think it's interesting for for people that create music to understand the stories of other people that create music because it kind of gives them an idea as to oh, that that that sounds like an appealing path, or oh yeah, I might like to do that. Because some of the things that we do, they're always a gamble and they don't always last forever. And there's so many different things we can do, and sometimes uh it's it's good to know what that pathway might look like for different people. So I always like To understand what that pathway was like for you know for for others, and what was that like? I know it's difficult to generalize because there's so much to it in many ways, but what was that transition like? What I can remember, I'll share.

SPEAKER_02: 20:15

Um well, I mean, at the beginning it was always about songwriting. So I always wanted to be a songwriter. So I went to Liverpool to study songwriting for about three years. Um, and then, you know, spent what, I think a total of 10, 10, 10, 11 years in the UK, like just, you know, slugging it out, like guitar, voice, and like seeing what I could do just with these two instruments. And it came to a point, in all honesty, where I just got a bit tired. Like it's like, you know, I'm I'm doing this, like I'm still sleeping on couches, like, you know, I'm, you know, I still have a day job, and then I, you know, I would finish work at four and do two gigs a night, sometimes, you know, play at every kind of open mic or any anyone who'd offer me a gig. And it just got to this point where I was just like, I just need a break. Um, and I came back to Tokyo and because I grew up here, family's here, everything like that. Um, and I came back to Tokyo and I got a job offer to kind of work in in a uh music agency called DAG Music, which was they, I don't know if they still exist anymore. I think they still do, but um this agency was really the the the it was a turning point in my life. Um, because they asked me to be like a a voice agent or someone who would kind of like like look look after the vocal talent. But this was really like the first time that I was introduced to the commercial world and like the game world and things like that. Um and my job at the time was to make sure that you know the vocal talent would come to the studio, I'd translate English and Japanese, and I'd I'd make sure that they get home and I'd make sure the session was fine. And the more and more I'd go to studios and the more and more I'd see these sessions, it was be like, you know, one day I'm going in and the same producer would be doing like a hip hop track. Then the next day he'd be doing a jazz track, and then he'd be doing a classical track. And then for me, working or, you know, trying to make a living as uh as a as a songwriting artist, it you know, you start to get pigeonhold of what kind of music you're allowed to do because that's your sound type of thing. Um, and to see that these people were able to kind of, you know, work within jazz, hip-hop, classical music, so on and so forth, all within the span of a week was very, very attractive to me because it was never just about one type of music. Maybe I could only play a certain type of music, but I always wanted to be a part of different types of music. So once I saw that world, then I started to become very, very more attracted to it and just tried to find ways that I could actually get into a position where I could be that producer who could, you know, direct the orchestra or direct a hip-hop uh artist in a certain type of track, or even start even creating worlds or creating ideas for certain brands or for certain game scenes or for a movie, you know. And that was always the the push for me. It was how do you tell stories in a different way, even if musically, maybe, maybe technically and theoretically I'm I'm not that great. But I somehow was able to connect with a lot of artists um on a personal level. So then that was also a driving point for me. It's like I just want to help tell their stories, and I want to help uh elevate the storytelling that you know, this game guy, this this game game creators making or uh directors doing, or you know, I think that was really my my turning point. And then how do you then use um that touring and songwriting experience and then start to actually then put it into play within writing the track or helping them you know produce tracks that can elevate their art form as well so that we become more like a it's like a tennis game rather than just sitting against a wall, you know? Because uh songwriting and composition can be really fucking lonely, especially when it's not going right. So what we try to do at Blackout White Cat is always to have that that feedback, you know. So like if an artist comes up with a track and they're like, hey dude, I'm not too sure about the track, can you have a listen? We'll always listen to the tracks every day just to make sure that we're all on the same page and they're feeling you know, because for me when I was alone, I wanted that support. So I always want to support whoever I'm working with. So I think that was really that transition um from being, you know, a a touring kind of guitar and vocalist screaming guy into what I do now. And it's like, how do you it's always been about the story, but it's also how do I how am I able to work with people that not only inspire me but influence me and and change the way I I see things because I mean this could be our only life, right? So you might as well have fun.

SPEAKER_00: 24:50

Yeah, oh absolutely. I love that. Um thank you for your excuse me, thank you for your honesty there, because you know, it's a fascinating subject and it can be a very isolating game for music composers, right? You can spend a lot of time sat in solitary confinement and do your best work and lots and lots and lots of task time, uh thankless tasks at times, right? And um, and and actually that can kind of start to kind of mould somebody to be a certain way. I love it. I love by the way, I love your your analogies, by the way, Eric. And you know about the food and whatnot earlier and the bonsai, but the tennis one is brilliant, right? Because um, you know, that back and forth uh is is is a crucial aspect of all of this. Um, and it's a very healthy aspect to all of this as well. Um, it's interesting, I think. One of the things that I've noticed, and and you very much fit into this category, is that when people have art, the that art becomes the craft. So the things that you plow into your own artistic vision create you, leave you with um a series of skills that you then use as a craft point for others. And part of that's music, right? Uh, your ability to create music, and part of it is your your taste, right? Your taste and where that kind of uh meets the expectations of other people. That's a very, very difficult thing to try and get right. Uh, you are a master of that. Um, you know, I really congratulate you for that because it's a tough thing to try and get the balance right on, and I think you do it amazingly well.

SPEAKER_02: 26:33

You know what the secret is? Is to to to to really just get to know the people that you're working with. I think that is such a key thing. People forget how how much a conversation can take you. You know, people forget like like how much just a drink or even our little chat before we had this interview. Like, you know, we already got a vibe for each other. Like, like it's it's these small little things that you start picking up on, and like, you know, it's like, okay, if this person has a certain inflection with the way he would say a certain word, or you know, listening to your podcast in the past, like, you know, how you'd uh maybe conjure up a question, like then you start to kind of get a certain rhythmical aspect to it, and then you start to kind of find certain musical things that you can kind of work with and be like, okay, if that person talks like this, then you know, if they talk in a certain tone, then maybe that is a better way for them to sing if they want to do a certain sexier voice. Do you know what I mean? Like, there's so many different ways that you can kind of take from from from just the conversation. And and a lot of the artists that I've worked with, like, you know, we get along so well, is because we've we've chatted about their dog or like, you know, gardening, or like things that that that you wouldn't necessarily think is relates to music, but it does. Yeah. Because it's the person, it's always that person that who creates it. And it's both of you creating something together. So if you don't know that, then yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 27:53

That's wonderful. So easy to uh to overlook the importance of that, right? Just that let's jump on a call and let's chat it through. You know, it basically solves most problems, doesn't it? Really?

SPEAKER_02: 28:06

It does. I mean, because you're you're uh one text message. If you if you tell me to fuck off on a text message, but if you tell me to fuck off with a laugh, and it means the same thing, you're definitely going to take it a wrong way if it's just a text message, right? Yeah. Like like do you know what I mean? Like it's I know it's really, really simple and very, very crude in the way I kind of put it, but it's it's it's such a simple, easy to understand analogy. Where these two words can change everything.

unknown: 28:31

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 28:32

Just with a chat or with a text.

SPEAKER_00: 28:35

Gosh, that's a good example of it, actually. Um finally, Eric, I'd love to ask you what you what tips you could give to emerging composers who wish to kind of create their own presence in the world of music creation. And I I was going to ask you about music creation for brands, but let's go a little wider than that because you know we can it's great. I love it when I meet music creators that go, this is my lane over here, this is what I want to do. I love that because it helps them to kind of tap into their own ideals that that's where I want to fit. Maybe after that I'll go and do something else. So if we just think about on a broader terms, like what tips would you give to those that kind of trying to find that their their niche and what what that might look like in the world of music creation?

SPEAKER_02: 29:27

Oh mate, just try everything. And I think I think that's that's really all it comes down to for me. Well, at least for me, it was like, you know, I'm gonna try this, this didn't work, I'm gonna try that, that didn't work, this doesn't work, this, you know, and it's it's a lot of it's trial and error because when it comes down to it, it's you that's creating something. So you have to feel comfortable with what you are are good with. Like even if society tells you that, you know, this is a hit right now, this is trending, if that's not you, then why are you gonna put the effort and time into it? Like, is it for the money or is it actually for you know what you artistically want to do? And of course, I mean, I've I've been there, done that in the sense that, you know, it's like, oh, maybe I'll write these kind of songs because it's the in thing right now, you know. But when it comes down to at least for me, it was just like it didn't work. So I just tried a lot of different types of ideas and always found a story that I wanted to be in love with. Whether that's in short form, long form, working with an artist, working with a sound designer, working with an engineer, you know, watching a chef cook and seeing how the rhythm is and how he cuts a tomato, for instance. Do you know what I mean? Like there's so many things, and and try to be inspired by the world because it's there to be to take inspiration from.

SPEAKER_00: 30:44

Oh, what an inspiring answer. Yeah, I love that. Um, no, that makes that makes a lot of sense. I suppose something that builds itself into that uh is the uh resilience, right? Not being afraid of failing at something. Um that's an important component of all of this, I guess.

SPEAKER_02: 31:05

We're we're I think we're all gonna fail. Everyone fails, and the only way that you're gonna learn and get better is by failing. You know, so if anything, when was it? I think was it a podcast as well, or like a book that I read that, um, or maybe it was like a conversation with a friend, but uh, one of these a couple of years ago, someone was like, you know, you should try celebrating your failures more than celebrating your successes. Yeah, because of those failures, you can be more successful. And I was just like, dude, that's actually, yeah, that actually makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Like, you know, like celebrate the fact that I fucked up. And it's okay to fuck up. We will all fuck up. It's how do you then stand up and go keep on going and keep on going? And that would be the same with music. I mean, life is pretty much everyone's throwing shit at you, anyways. So, like, how do you just keep on going, you know? And how do you find that, make sure that that that music, if if music is what you really want to do, then you'll find a way to do it.

SPEAKER_01: 32:01

Yeah. Yes.

SPEAKER_02: 32:03

I was close to not doing that. I was close to you know doing another job for something exam.

SPEAKER_00: 32:10

Eric, that's the perfect note to end on. I uh I can't thank you enough for your time, for your for your energy, your wisdom, your input. Um I really, really, really appreciate you. Uh thank you.

SPEAKER_02: 32:21

No, no, it was an absolute pleasure.

SPEAKER_00: 32:23

Oh, it was my pleasure. What a top dude. Do you know? I love it when people can actually sort of simplify with love and understanding, right? Uh it's it's quite a hard thing to do, especially in such a complex business as music, right? But Eric's a fine example of somebody that just looks at things beautifully, right? Just doesn't get too caught up in things, doesn't take himself too seriously, takes his work seriously, I'm sure, but doesn't take himself too seriously. And he's just a great guy to talk to. You know, when you look at some of the music that he's done, have a listen to it. You know, you can go on their website, by the way. Um, if you just put in Google Black Cat White Cat Music, uh, you'll find their website and you can listen to some of the things that they've done. If you want to get into this and you want to kind of go, hey, do you know what? That's something I might do, then you know, it is a great pathway, right? But have a look at what they've done. Some of the ways, some of the idents and the music that have been put towards, you know, big car brands or watches or anything else that they uh have done musically. Uh it's fascinating, it really is. It's amazing. Um, anyway, that's enough from me today. A big thanks to Eric for coming onto the show today. I hope you enjoyed that, everybody. Until next time, have a great day and the force be with you.