Episode 108: Can Music Escape The Algorithm? (with Keith Jopling)

You can feel it happening: a quiet revolt against the feed. When music becomes something we scroll past, count, and optimise, we lose the part that actually nourishes us. So I sit down with Keith Jopling, former Spotify global head of strategy and one of the UK’s sharpest music industry thinkers, to talk about the surprisingly radical idea at the heart of his book Body Of Work.  

We start with the album and why it refuses to die. Keith breaks down what campaigns like Charli XCX’s Brat reveal about culture, timing, and the return of album-era moments, especially among younger fans. From Taylor Swift to Billie Eilish to Olivia Rodrigo, we explore why cohesive projects still matter even when “album consumption” is difficult to measure in the streaming era, and why physical formats like vinyl and CDs can be part fandom, part merch, and part a genuine route back to attention and meaning. 

Then we get practical for creators: what constitutes a hit record in 2026? We look at how charts have become more industry-facing, what streaming numbers can and cannot tell you, and why the most honest metric might be the song your crowd sings back the loudest. We also challenge the obsession with measurement, including the growing pressure to treat music as a set of financial metrics, and land on the real antidotes: live music, better craft, and rituals like listening parties that make music communal again. 

If you care about the future of the music business, the creator economy, and the health of music culture, press play. Subscribe, share this with a music obsessive, and leave a review with the last album you listened to front-to-back.

https://www.songsommelier.com

https://www.songsommelier.com/body-of-work

Transcript

Welcome And Guest Introduction

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Welcome to the Music Business Body, the podcast decoding how the modern music industry actually works. I'm Johnny Amott, industry consultant, artist manager, producer, educator, and author of the music business for music creators. Every Wednesday I explore the ideas, technology, and industry shifts shaping the future of music. This show helps creators navigate the rapidly changing business of music. Keith featured all the way back into episode 27, and in fact, he's actually the first time I've ever had a repeat guest on the podcast. For anybody that's not familiar with Keith, so he kind of sits for he has sat now for the last what a couple of decades or more at the intersection between music technology, uh uh consumer insights and business strategy. Uh, he is widely regarded as one of the greatest um music industry consultants and strategists in the UK. He's the former global head uh of strategy at Spotify. He's a researcher and educator, he is all sorts of different things. He is just a fascinating guy and one of the smartest minds I've ever met in my life. Um, the last time he was on the podcast, he was talking uh about a book. Um, and then one of the things I've noticed about Keith over the last 18 months or whatever it is that's passed since I last spoke to him, um, is that he's brought out two books. Um, and one of them in particular is called Body of Work, and it really, really captured my imagination. In fact, I'll be honest with you, it really, really touched me. And you'll hear me talk about it too, Keith, uh, today in the interview, uh, because it challenged me. It's not only one of the greatest music, it is in fact the greatest music industry book I have ever read. Um, and it's one of the best books I've ever read. And and I don't think it's even targeted at people in the music industry or people that create music, it's just a really superb, humble account of consumership of music. Uh, it's fascinating. It's called Body of Work. I'll put a link to it uh in the description of this episode. So that is who my guest is today. Uh I do ask Keith uh about that book uh on a couple of the questions, but generally we just talk quite a lot about music, about the creator economy, about where things are at. Um so I'm gonna hand over to you the interview and enjoy. Keith, welcome back to the music business, buddy. It's good to have you here.

SPEAKER_03 2:40

Thanks for having me. I enjoyed it last time. I thought we had a great conversation. I've been looking forward to this.

SPEAKER_00 2:45

Ah, likewise, mate. Likewise.

Why Body Of Work Hits Hard

SPEAKER_00 2:47

Well, um, Keith, I've got to start by mentioning uh body of work, right? Since we last spoke, you've actually written two books in very close succession, by the way, or published in close succession. Yeah. Um, and I know we spoke a little bit about it when you were last on here, but um, I've got to start by talking about body of work. Um, it might just be, um, I hope I don't imbalance you by saying this case, but it might just be the best music book I've ever read. Um that's amazing. That's absolutely I really mean it. It's because it's more than just a great book about music or music consumption or the music business. It's just a great book. You know, it it got me questioning a lot of things about my own listening habits, um, about wanting to spend more time listening to albums all the way through. Um, you know, I heard an interview with Ed Sheeran not so long ago where he was talking about the idea of how he plays every week, he plays one vinyl record in its entirety um to his family. And that's just something that they do as a family. And I and it and it really touched me. And I thought, wow, you know, with a little five-year-old at home, we should be doing that, right? You know, yeah, um, yeah, you know, and I know that's something that's kind of mentioned. Uh I'm sort of paraphrasing your book when I'm talking about that concept because there's so many things in there that are just gems, but congratulations. Um I haven't read Road Riding the Roller Coaster yet, but it's literally on my desk. So that's the next one. But uh thank you for what you've done with that book, Keith. It's amazing.

SPEAKER_03 4:14

Well, thanks very much for saying that, first of all. I think the um a bit like when you ask a musician, you know, what's why do they do what they do, and they say, you know, it's it's not fame and fortune, and it certainly isn't but through writing books. It's just touching people, really, just changing the way they think, changing behavior is amazing, and just having you say that you've gone you've you've thought twice about things and you've gone back to a you know i i suppose you, you know, you know, you're a music fan and lover as well as working in music. But when people tell me they've bought a vinyl player and uh they've gone back to listening to their favourite albums and things like that, and when people tell me they've really stopped to think about what they've not been doing, which is listening, then I know the book has hit the spot, and that's partly why I wrote the book. So that there is an agenda there, and I I'm glad it's coming across. So yeah, thanks very much for saying that. I need to get a copy to Ed Sheeran, don't I?

SPEAKER_00 5:21

I know. I tell you what, I think he would love it. Um yeah, uh I I'm sure, I'm sure he would. Um I've got to start by asking you about something in chapter seven, Keith.

Brat And The Return Of Album Moments

SPEAKER_00 5:31

Um, because uh it was well, I loved every chapter, but chapter seven really captured my imagination, especially on the evolution of the album model. And I wanted to ask you, because I was reading it and I was thinking, is he gonna talk about the Bratt campaign? And you hadn't mentioned it, and then I thought, oh, okay, here it comes, you know. Um, because uh, you know, Charlie XX's Bratt campaign, the entirety of it, you know, has been pretty heralded throughout the music industry. Um, and I, you know, I had uh Ralph W Peer from Peer Music on it a few months ago, and he was raving about it, um, and and as of many, many other people. Um, do you think, uh, with your sort of strategic uh mind, do you think that that album campaign was a sort of um elongated reactive marketing thing, or do you think that that album actually hit a nerve in youth culture in the way that albums are supposed to? Because it's it might be a bit of both, but I can't help but wonder if it's one or the other, and I wonder what your thoughts were.

SPEAKER_03 6:32

Yeah, I think it is a bit of both, because in retrospect, um I think she's been great at Charlie XEX as being a spokesperson for her own creative process, and I see this more and more with artists, they're using their social media to lift the lid on their creative process and tell us how it is. Uh, and I think that's great. I think it's a really great use of of social media. And she's really engaged, isn't she, with the industry? You can see what she's doing. She's been turning up for in-depth interviews. Uh, she did a a really useful TikTok that um I don't think I saw the TikTok before I wrote the book. I think I saw it after she wrote No, I actually I did see it during the writing process of the book, because I mention it. Where she says, you know, it's um it looks like an accident. Because when something hits the culture, to some extent it's an accident, isn't it? Because it's gone further than any campaign would have expected. The campaign has lit something up in in the public's consciousness, and then it kind of goes big, it blows off. So it cut everything worked, but there was definitely a campaign, and and she led it, didn't she? You know, there was a concept behind the album. Uh it was a throwback thing that she wanted to represent. She did it very well. Uh, even that kind of pixelated green cover that really caught on. If they looked a bit cheap and nasty, that was the idea behind it, you know, and it was one of I think a selection of many different covers that they looked at. And so she did say that was this is two years of my life. I've I've spent thinking about this as well as just putting it, putting the work out. I've thought about how to present it. And then lo and behold, it it caught on. But it did take a while, you know. It wasn't a number one album as far as I know. I think it just I think it got to number two in the chart. So it was it was I love it because it was a throwback to what albums used to do, as you say, you know. Albums used to be these big events, uh, but they would take time to bed in. And, you know, by the time you got to the second or third single, maybe it was that maybe it was one of the singles that caught fire, but then people realized how good the album was, and then word of mouth kicks in, and then you've cracked it. Yeah, you know, and it and it goes international, you've really cracked it. So I think it was definitely a bit of both. And you know, I've got to take my hat off to uh the people behind the campaign and the label because they continued with it, right? So I think one of the things that the music industry generally has been become better at is reacting and responding to something that blows. I think they've just got gotten not so good at um making um making great pieces of work successful on their own terms. I think they're they're giving up on stuff too quickly. But when it is when it is really blowing up, you know, they're amplifying it instead of pressing all the buttons that need to press. So it's really interesting. I would say one final thing about Bratt, because it's also done a bigger job than just you know expanding Charlie XEX's career to the next level. And she's been going for a long time, so she was trying to do that, and that that's that's a success. She's now a global superstar uh and a movie actress. Of course, more controversially. Um, but it did more, didn't it? It it it helped to bring the album back into the into the consciousness of the fan, especially that younger, more female-oriented fan base who now get it. Like, okay, album's interesting. So now we've got Olivia Rodrigo, very album focused. And of course, you know, before Bratt, Billy Eilish, very album focused. Taylor Swift, of course, very so I love this. I just love the fact that the top-tier artists, especially the women, are really getting behind the album as a creative force. Yeah. And that's one of the reasons why no no one could kill it, Johnny.

SPEAKER_01 11:02

No, no.

SPEAKER_03 11:03

Not talking about anyone in particular.

unknown 11:06

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 11:07

Of course. Do you know it's it it's it's interesting because you know, sometimes like as time goes by and we look up back on something in retrospect and go, oh, that year was quite pivotal. And and uh 2024, I mean, you alluded to this brilliantly in the book. 2024 in particular was a very, very big, important year for a lot of the female artists that you mentioned there. Um, and I it's really interesting to sit here only in 2026 and already think back to like a couple of years ago and go, that was massive. I'm really glad that happened because from then we've seen newer artists that are wanting to put albums out and build a campaign around it, which uh you know uh is is also a really interesting subject. Um, I want to ask you about this, actually. I'll come back to the album thing in a minute, but I've got a question for

What A Hit Record Means Now

SPEAKER_00 11:55

you. It's a bit of a stinker, right? Um what constitutes a hit record in 2026? What do you think?

SPEAKER_03 12:06

I try and define it actually in roller coaster. So you need to read, you need to read on. Ah, okay.

SPEAKER_00 12:13

I should have read that before uh before today, okay.

SPEAKER_03 12:15

Also, incidentally, by the way, last time I was on your podcast, it was the first time I'd mentioned I'd written a book, and I hadn't found a publisher at that point, so that was riding the roller coaster. I became riding the roller coaster. So I was a bit sheepish about sharing it because I wasn't sure the book would ever come out at that point. Oh wow, that's all happened quickly, then it did come out, but we put it out second. So we put I ended up writing the books same time and swapping them over, and we thought let's put body of work out first because it was almost more topical. It's interesting that you've you've read it first. I think that probably was the right way around. Anyway, in writing the roller coaster, I talk about five routes to long-term success, as in the longevity thing. Okay, right. And uh just quickly, the five routes are have a hit record, get dropped by your label, make a classic album, uh become a cult artist, and build your brand. And I think I'd had those roots defined last time we spoke. Yes, not quite in that way, perhaps.

SPEAKER_00 13:24

Okay.

SPEAKER_03 13:24

But yeah, have a hit single, of course, has completely changed. So before the 21st century, yeah, I I think we're talking before the 21st century, you could have a a chart hit, and uh, you know, a good a top ten or top twenty chart hit, or a billboard two hundred hit, would potentially see your career for the next ten years. You know, if it was a b if it was a good enough hit. And what you you know you followed up with decent material and you could almost get a a career out of it out of a hit song. Of course, that's now gone because the charts really don't mean they don't mean much to the public. The charts are now an industry thing, and they're a flash in the pan. So even if you get a chart hit, it doesn't matter. So it's all streaming now, we know that. And so I try and measure, well, what's a streaming hit, because you know, five million isn't necessarily that, ten million isn't necessarily that. Maybe it is if you do it in a short space of time. But yeah, it's I think it's a combination of streaming, kind of streaming numbers, if you like, depending on where you are as an artist. But I I'm trying to encourage everyone. So I say, like, to some extent, a hit record now is the one that the your crowd is singing back to you the loudest. You know, the one where they know all the lyrics. That's the one to take as affirmation that you can write a good song, and you work that song and get it as far as it it can go. And hey, if it doesn't become a big streaming success or it doesn't get on the radio, it doesn't get in the charts, don't worry. That's a hit song and you know it. Um but essentially, you know, it's uh it's now a streaming hit. But really the equivalent of a top what a top 10 hit used to do for you in the last century, you really need a song that's got 50 million, maybe a hundred million streams now, don't you? You know, before you can really be regarded as someone who's gonna get backing from a label, um someone who's gonna get recognition because that's gonna transfer into your monthly listeners, and you can you're gonna use that as a badge to get noticed elsewhere. That song's probably just gonna end up running and running on various playlists, so you get a chance to get another song on a playlist. But that's a lot. I mean, that's a really big barrier to to hit.

SPEAKER_00 15:55

Yeah, it is. It is. Do you know what I can't help but wonder, Keith? I'd be interested to see what you think on this. I wonder if the metric right now

The Trap Of Metrics And Measurement

SPEAKER_00 16:05

for many artists in that context is how many streams has this had. And then we can go deeper and go, let's have a look at, let's say, the listener to stream ratio or how many saves, and it'll give you a further indication as to what that might look like, source of streams, etc. But maybe, just maybe, perhaps even five years from now, it won't be how many streams it's had, but more so how many times has it been licensed. Um, and then it turns into, especially if we really start to engage with the micro licensing model, you know, if media is the thing that has been driving music's economy really in the last sort of 20 years, let's say. Um, and now we're changing the way that we consume media. So if that and I know there's a lot of tech startups out there now moving towards the micro licensing model, perhaps that might be a metric for, oh yeah, I've had you know 112 licenses globally in the last three years. Right. Thank you very much. That's a metric which we can plow into uh a fintech company, for example. Um, you know, when you first made me aware of fintech. Yeah, you know, um maybe that would be your thing. I don't know.

SPEAKER_03 17:13

Well, it's an interesting idea. I mean, uh, you know what I'm really trying to sort of get away from with this idea that you know your your hit is the one that the fans sing back to you, is is to just not try and measure it, because I think this whole idea of measurement is one of the things that's really uh it's it may it gets artists kind of despondent about things, you know. And uh they they didn't really like it in the first place. M most artists didn't get into making music so that it could be measured. Of course, they get sort of addicted to it, you know, when it when it happens. Um but they don't really want to be constantly reminded that they've gotta hit a number as such. That's not how they measure success. And in the end, it the funny thing about it is I think we've got to meet in the middle somewhere because I see where you're coming from, but what I fear about say the licensing metric is that we're feeding the beast, you know. Um and I think we've got to find a way where we can define success, creative success, and to some extent um maybe cultural power, brand power, without getting sucked into more and more kind of tech and financial metrics. Because I think they they are what's um they're not killing creativity, but they're making it more and more commodified, you know, and and streaming already did that to some extent, and uh there's been a lot of benefits to it. But I think as we get into this sort of whole commodification, selling the catalogues, trading the catalogues, it's just very, very separate. It's a very separate world from from what the artist really wants to do. So I don't know, it's an interesting idea, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 19:12

Yeah, and well, that that's a very, very, very good point, right? Because um artists and songs have always been and will always be at the epicentre of this entire discussion, right? Without them, we have nothing, we don't have a business. And you're right, I think that kind of stuff does rub a lot of artists up the wrong way. Sometimes I've noticed just recently when I spoke to some artists about, and I've try and encourage people to think more long term about their catalogue, and very often it goes over their heads, and I don't blame them because it would have done with me in my 20s, I wouldn't have been interested in thinking about what my publishing might look like in 40 years, because I'm thinking about next week or right now, you know. Um and I know that a lot, you know, Spotify and and let's say AI as well, right? They're often framed as like symbols

Live Music As The Antidote

SPEAKER_00 19:58

of progress, right? And and yet a lot of younger artists feel very uncomfortable, if not repulsed, in fact, by both, as and they struggle to articulate as to exactly why that might be. But um, is there, do you think, a deeper cultural shift um around authenticity and value and what it actually means to have a music career?

SPEAKER_03 20:19

Yeah, I think for sure. Yeah, I think that shift is happening uh as we speak, and I think it's a really interesting phenomenon. I think one one of the reasons why Live has bounced back so much from COVID when we questioned it, didn't we, whether it was ever really come back. And but it absolutely has. It's come back bigger than ever. And on every level, from the kind of superstar stadium and arena tours, which have become super sophisticated, we've got these stadium residences, and now we've got these super arena tours which are thought through theatrically, you know, uh and technically amazing. Um all the way down to the grassroots stuff, where you could see the artists are putting a bit more thought into their performance. And I think that's seen to be the real way to connect.

SPEAKER_00 21:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:15

The real way to grow your art and and uh master your craft. And um that's visceral, isn't it? That's absolutely live. So that's one one kind of antidote, if you like, I think, to the whole what you've just been talking about. There's a few others as well. I think the Again, the focus on the album. To me, that's interesting. That's artists there's this great creative race to make great albums, right? I mean, you we've noticed this, haven't we? I mean, you know, every week now there is a sort of epic album that comes out. I thought the Ray album was epic.

SPEAKER_00 21:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 21:54

Um even on an i you know, on an indie level, um talking to Jessica Hoop on The podcast on my podcast later, her new album is fantastic, Long Wave Home. It's it's a real work of art, you know. Um, so that's another way that they're coming back. And then I had I spoke to Kurt Weil earlier this week on the podcast, so that one's gonna come out in a couple of weeks. And I said to him, Like, when you're a young artist up and coming through, like, because there are a lot of them are looking up to artists like him, it's like an is the indie slacker guy who's now actually a bit of a superstar, you know, on every level. And he said something interesting to me, which is yeah, you've got to keep getting your music out, music out there. Try not to be ignored, but also, you know, physical. Um, yeah, again at every level. It's the same with the books. Um, I was just looking for one to to put up. Let me get a book here, right? Yeah. Do a bit of advertising, Johnny. There. Yeah, do it. I I mean, I haven't sold any um virtually any, you know, digital copies. It's this this thing is is selling. Uh and I want it to be a physical thing. And I think a lot of artists feel the same way at all levels. Like get some CDs made, you know, old school style. Um, I think Kurt Bowl had said CDRs. Get some CDRs made, you know. Um, get some vinyl pressed if you can. Use Elastic Stage, get some vinyl pressed, get some merch, sell some t-shirts, uh, print on demand. Because that's the stuff that's really sticking. I think I'm not saying, you know, a really great creative social media account won't get you far. It clearly will. But I'm talking about building fans here and building your career as opposed to exposure and reach. And the two things are entirely different. We know that.

SPEAKER_00 23:54

Yeah, that's a very good point. Um, do you know on that subject? Because the the the the physical side of things there, and I'm glad you mentioned the book, because I almost I was not nodding long ago, I'm really glad that I bought the physical copy and not

Physical Media And Real Fan Building

SPEAKER_00 24:10

the digital copy. So am I. Yeah. Um, and in chapter five of that very book, um, it kind of implies that there is a sense of sort of album appreciation that's perhaps fashionable, maybe even more so than album consumption. Although you very articulately, of course, talk about the idea of how it's difficult to measure album consumption. Um, now do you think that it might be the case with, let's say, for example, Gen Z, um uh, you know, that the the listening habits that are being sort of technically opposed upon them um is that they are listening to less albums even though they appreciate them.

SPEAKER_03 24:56

Yeah, for sure. I mean, no question about it. That the whole mystery to this um body of workbook is and I knew it before I set out to find the answer that I wasn't gonna find the answer through data. I mean I've been working with data for many, many years. When it's there, it's it's great, you can get an answer. When it's not there don't attempt to you know don't attempt to construct it, you know. And I think uh, for example, the chart the album chart is a misnomer, really. It's it's a kind of kind of false construct. Because it's just streams of tracks added together. Uh and even there's rules like the the biggest two tracks on an album are excluded from the album count to try and um I was gonna talk about this in the book, but it got too technical. I want the book to be read by everybody. No, it's not a music industry book, as you s as you said. I'm really pleased you said that. But it's uh we're making this stuff up. Uh I mean, we know how many people are buying vinyl, yeah, of course, and CDs, but as you say, a lot of them are buying for to collect, or they're buying as a it might be a show of respect to the art to the artist and fandom. That's clear. Uh so essentially they're buying it as merch. And you know, I I've caught my my daughter looking at the the um the liner notes of Alana Del Rey album while she's playing the album on her phone. Okay. You know, so she's got the vinyl. Like, put the put the record on. You know, she's got I mean she's got a record player now. That might have been before she had a record player in her room, she got my old kit. Um, but you know what I mean. Uh, you you know, it's we're not doing what what I advocate and what Ed Sheeran's doing once a week with his family. We're generally speaking, we're not doing that. Uh, and to some extent, I think that's an opportunity because we should encourage everybody to start doing that, because it's a fantastic experience. Listening to an album at home, whether it's vinyl or on your headphones, is a really good experience. And once you start doing it once a week or twice a week, you will keep on doing it. You will because it's nourishing, as opposed to you know looking at this and scrolling through and all that. We know that's not nourishing, it's addictive, but it's not nourishing. So I think this is an opportunity to encourage people to do it more. But my argument in the book is it doesn't really matter because the album is still the cultural glue that the artist needs to make good songs. So they realize it, that they've always known that to write a good song, to have a hit, you've got to write a bunch of songs, and those bunch of songs are, you know, out of a certain time frame and a phase of their life, and therefore there may be a theme and concept behind it, whether it's a breakup or they've fallen in love or they want to talk about the state of the world. I love this, this idea. Yeah. But that's unbreakable. That's an unbreakable format. So it doesn't really matter if we're listening to it or not, the container will continue. And I'm totally confident that it will continue forever. You know, whatever tech comes along, AI, you just throw it all out there. I don't care. The album will continue for a bunch of reasons, but because it's it works.

SPEAKER_00 28:47

Yeah, do you know I I being always being the an eternal optimist, Keith, I've always trying to look for like the good in something and kind of like you know, that's why I don't tend to moan

Do Young Fans Still Listen Albums

SPEAKER_00 28:58

about what you stuff on the podcast, because what's the point, right? And and I when I started to read your book, but just before I read it, I thought I want to believe that the album can live forever. And when I finished the book, I thought I now know that it can. Um, and that's one of one of the many positive things that came out of it. Um and and I really thank you for that because it made me smile um so much to think that, you know, um, because they are time capsules, right? You know, like uh do you remember a few years ago when um Taylor Swift re-recorded the I think was it the Red album or one of those albums that were the whole thing with the Masters and she did a new version and and there's kind of like the old versions of that album, and and and she tried to replicate it as best she could, but of course she can't because she sounds a little bit older, right? In the nicest way possible. She should, right? We all do, like you know, if 10 years on, a few years, and we all sound a little bit different, we feel a little bit different, and it's very important important that that's captured in a certain way. But the point I'm reaching with this is that they are time capsules in the same way as this moment is right now, it's a time capsule, it'll be somewhere and it represents what happened in this time, and and um that's really special. And I think albums in some ways perhaps do that better than songs do.

SPEAKER_03 30:19

Um Yeah, I I think they do, but they do it better than songs do, because you can you can map out a classic career album by album, can't you? I mean, even Michael Jackson, somebody who's you know in the culture now because of a terrible film, actually. Um I've I don't I haven't seen it. That's I I'm judging a film here that I haven't seen, but I can I can kind of imagine it's a this a dreadful film. It doesn't matter, it's done the job, it's brought him back, that's what they did it for. But I mean, essentially he's like a hitmaker artist. But still, if you want to understand Michael Jackson, even if you're a young fan now going to um delving back into Michael Jackson's career, you do it album by album, don't you? See the the change from the wall in the what's that the early 80s? I I might get my timings wrong, but from the after which is late 70s. Yeah, yeah, so still very much a sort of nod to Motown, but going going out as uh as bridging into being a pop artist, and then thriller, of course, and then and then bad, you know, that that trajectory is classic, and it's album by album, right? And that's where that's the way we understand artists' careers, and we that's the way we understand our own love of music for a certain generation. So I understand how that's that that's no longer the case out there in consumer land, but as I say, I think that's an opportunity because kids now are discovering Michael Jackson album by album. I I think Taylor Swift fans have now got got it. I think they've they've kind of got the idea, and I in the book I talk about folklore and evermore, which released during the pandemic, of course, being instrumental to this idea because it was a shift in tone and genre and everything else, a very cohesive project, dropped without any fanfare, and that kind of hit home to Taylor Swift's massive fan base, young fan base as well. That she's an album artist, and so this is how they think. So I I I think people are catching on. Of course, the vinyl resurgence is really helping. Um even the kind of more uh gimmicky stuff like the cassette coming back and and CDs you know being a bit niche again, all that stuff is just a great opportunity for. I'm almost envious of young fans that have been that have been sort of groomed on streaming, if you like, uh can now go back and and discover artists' careers album by album. They might be young, but they probably haven't got the time. They're gonna have to be selective, because I think the one thing about albums is that they take time. And if you want to appreciate an album really, you've got to listen to it. I mean, I talk about you know my favourite albums in the book. I'm sure you say the same about your favourite albums. I've street I I've I've listened to them hundreds of times. Hundreds of times.

SPEAKER_00 33:47

Well, it's funny actually, because I remember when you in the beginning of the book and you dedicated it to Queen and their albums, and I thought, oh that's interesting. Well, and I thought, well, I'll find out why. And I read it and I did find out why. It's interesting that you mentioned Michael Jackson because um Michael Jackson and Bad was that for me for what Queen was for you. Okay, okay. Um, and so that was a really interesting little segue that you mentioned that, you know.

SPEAKER_03 34:12

Right. Um so what's your is Bad your favourite album? What what give me a couple of examples of what what you'd put in your top ten?

SPEAKER_00 34:22

Um well albums ever uh well I they're always gonna be biased, aren't they? Because uh you're always gonna be led by the things that hit you most impressionably when you were younger. But bad certainly, but then I discovered uh not until years later, really, did I discover thriller, which I thought was uh you know infinitely better. And by then I started to understand music better and uh therefore sort of appreciate it more. But in other ways, when you

Albums As Time Capsules And Careers

SPEAKER_00 34:49

start to create music, I think that you lose some of that objectivity because you're thinking about the numerics, the rhythms, the melodies, all that kind of stuff, which is a shame, actually, you know. But anyway, um, but uh yeah, those two are absolutely up there. I love what he did in the 90s as well, and then into the 90s, there's um you know, Brit Pop had a massive impact on me. Um, and I know that everybody gravitates towards definitely maybe, and I get why, but for me it was more morning glory, uh, because there were it was just song after song after song, which just resonated with me in a way that it didn't make me unique. I was at Nebworth in '96 amongst the fields. Were you really?

SPEAKER_03 35:30

I was oh wow, oh wow, it's the reason I didn't go to the reunion shows. I'm like, I can't I can't recapture that for myself, and actually I regret not going because obviously the reviews were fantastic, so you know they they got it right, but um yeah, but it's never gonna be what it was, though, is it?

SPEAKER_00 35:49

Because Oasis as a band, uh the songs are sensational, they led youth culture with a uh uh by banging the sound of their own drum, and everybody followed, including me, because they were sensational. But they're not uh an absolutely killer live act, they they're very static, right? And that's not a criticism, it's just you you know what you're gonna get when you see them, you know.

SPEAKER_03 36:09

Well, also they made two classic albums, right? So, and that was very 90s, yeah. To make um, you know, really, really big date because the that's when the industry got overhyped and it and everything got you know, the turnover got faster and faster. It was the CD boom years, and so a lot of bands in that era made a couple of good albums, and then it was a kind of gradual downward slide, because they were under too much pressure by the time they came to the follow-ups, the subsequent albums that just couldn't match what they'd done. But one of the reasons I wrote the book, one of the initial reasons I wrote Body of Work was I started writing an essay on why some bands were making better albums than ever. I thought about Manic Street Preachers, um not maybe not better than ever, really good albums again. Let's just say that. Let's try and be objective about it. Suede, I mean, their last two albums have been absolutely fantastic. And to some extent, these are bands who are um creatively coming full circle. So they're reinventing themselves by looking back to when they were what made them originally great. So imagine if Oasis could do this. Imagine if, because I think they are working on new materials, that's the rumour. Imagine if they could somehow tap into what made them great for those first two albums and made something that was in that kind of bracket, you know. Wouldn't it be a fantastic thing? But it is happening, other bands are doing it, and I just found that was absolutely remarkable. I really enjoyed the fact that that's that's possible because again, to me, that is part of why the format is staying alive, and I think it's partly because of vinyl, you know, because it vinyl is doing what C D didn't. So CD bloated everything, it there was more space on it, so you had to put more tracks on every album, and you're t artists were tempted to do that. So you had these 14, 16 track albums that had too much filler, and they were too long. Whereas vinyl's really tidy, it's really neat, and it's divided into two sides, and so you've got this sort of classic 10, 11 track albums that tell the same story that we used to get in the 70s and 80s, and and that's partly why it's back. Uh you know, I mean, artists are really, really thinking about this, and this is where I say to record labels, you've got to do this justice. Yeah. You know, you've got artists making fantastic albums, taking two or three years, all the collaboration that goes into it, thinking about the sequencing, they're thinking about the art, you know, with going back to Charlie XyXE, the whole concept, side one, side two, the you know, how it opens, how it closes, how it moves through those phases. And you've got to do that justice somehow in the marketing of that piece of work. And that's what we're not doing in the music industry, because we've got so attached to this idea of it's got to be a song on a playlist, or it's got to be a viral video, or it's now it's got to be a sync. And if we don't get one of those three things, it's gone. You can forget it. And it's a real shame, and I think there is there are alternatives. Um we've been talking about, you know, listening, coming back, listening rooms, listening parties, just the ritual of of playing vinyl. A lot of people are kind of doing that Ed Sheeran ritual themselves. A lot of artists are doing it, but I know a lot of people who are doing it, and people have told me since they've read the book, oh, we've got a WhatsApp group, you know. We've got a it's uh it's we've got a WhatsApp group on albums, just with neighbours and friends, and I just I love that. It's like book clubs. Yeah. Oh, that is good. This is what we have to do. It's it's we have been um seduced by this addictive these addictive tech feeds that we know are not very good for us, so we've rumbled that. So now we've got to do something about it. And to

Vinyl Shaping Better Album Craft

SPEAKER_03 40:30

me, it it's got parallels with the environment. You know, like if you care about the environment environment, you've got to start thinking about what you buy, how you do your recycling, just your own carbon footprint. It starts with you. Yeah. Um, if you want to be healthier, uh, you know, with all this junk food that we can get, all the sugar that we've been, you know, the sugar rush that we've been kind of all of the stuff been forced to us as as in a Western diet. But if you want to be healthy, it's up to you to change that. I feel it's exactly the same way with culture. And it's exactly the same way with music. It is now down to us, the individual. That's why I'm writing books now and advocating this. Because it's impossible to fix the music industry. It's lost to some extent. It's you know, will it come round? I don't know. But us as listeners, we can change we can change it for us. And the experience that we're gonna have as a result is much better for us.

SPEAKER_00 41:36

Yeah, yeah, I think so. It's very, very hard to argue with that, especially for someone like you, Keith, that spent a lot of uh many, many years working in data and and analyzing and strategizing for you to reach that kind of um output yourself. That speaks volumes.

SPEAKER_03 41:57

Yeah, and you know, I'm trying to live by it, and I'm finding that it can be hard. You know, so uh the the last time I put a vinyl on and listened right through, it was over a week ago. And I'm saying, well, I should be doing this once a week. Um, and I'm still trying to listen to everything, which is also something you can't possibly do, you've got to be selective because the idea is to listen to a small amount of what's thrown at you and listen to that repeatedly, that's where the the real love comes in. This is why I'm enjoying the Jessica Hoop album, is because I've played it on heavy rotation, and believe me, it gets better. You know, it just reveals itself to you in a way that is just wonderful, like a good book, like a good movie, but uh but better because it's a repetitive process with music. You know, that's why music beats those other cultural formats, actually. Um the repetition, and then of course seeing it live, and I missed her live actually, but next time she comes around, I want to see that album live, and this is another way we can really enjoy the alb album culture is the the resurgence tours, the anniversary tours. Yeah, these are great ways of celebrating a catalogue, even a catalogue that's maybe just five or ten years in. And I used that example with Bears Den, you know, the album Island, it's only ten years old, it didn't chart when it came out, but for them and their fans, that's their classic album. And they toured it live, played the Royal Albert Hall. Bear's Den. Who would have thought? You remember you know, you mentioned Bears Den to someone, you know, just someone on the street that never ever heard of them, just like it is today. You know, who's your favourite band? Oh, it's it's a band called Shaking Hand. Ever heard of them? No, of course you haven't.

SPEAKER_00 44:02

That that's yeah, it's a shame actually, 'cause i it doesn't need to be that hey, let's celebrate this album by doing a tour of this in 20 years, like a lot of people do, and I get why they do it, but actually when people go and see people live, there's a reason for it, and it's the buy binding into that experience, but it's often really, really, because there's certain songs that they really like. So if they honed in on that and just Springsteen did it years ago. I know you spoke about Springsteen quite like in your book, but he did it a few years ago. He said, I'm just gonna tour Born to Run. I I I don't know why, but I'm just gonna play Born to Run for like this amount of all these dates are just gonna be born to run. I'll do requests and stuff afterwards, and then I'll do I'll I'll do Born in the USA when I come back next year. Um and it's like that's great because cinemas do that as well, don't they? Let's play back to the future. Yes, we can do the 25th anniversary, but we're not this next week, we're just gonna play Aliens and you know Back to the Future 2 because that's what people want to see, and they don't see it on the big screen. So we're gonna do that, and it's worked.

SPEAKER_03 44:58

Yeah, the only the only downside with that is it's really it's harder for new culture because what we're doing there is we're celebrating the classics, yeah. They were they were great. I mean, don't get me wrong, I mean Born to Run was great, we know that, right? Back to the Future is great, we know that. But you can't tell me that there aren't albums that were released this year, 2026, that aren't as good as Born to Run. No I can tell you that you know it can't be true because we have more artists, we have better production, we have um it's more competitive, so in a way the stuff that gets made has to be really, really good. But we're just missing it, aren't we? We're missing it in the waterfall of stuff, and we don't know how to celebrate it and take time to really enjoy it. And this is the problem, I think, and this is one of the issues that I think we will

Listening Parties And Culture By Choice

SPEAKER_03 46:07

need to fix as part of the backlash against you know, the the feed and the doom scroll. Uh so new artists like the Jessica Hoop album, I mean the Aldous Harding album, I I don't know, I don't want to get subjective about it, but I I can tell you ten fantastic albums that have been released so far this year that we need to celebrate as classics. And I'm talking to the industry about this, you know, because Bratt would have, you know, classic album, you know, sticker in the corner, wouldn't it? For sure. That's where we started this conversation. Um, and even on a site like Album of the Year, which is an aggregation site I use a lot just to see how an album's gone down with critical reviewers and fans. Great resource. A bit like uh Letterboxd is for films. They've got a um, I think it's called uh must-listen. You know, so a must-listen album that there'll be a hundred or two hundred must-listen albums that are released every year that it doesn't matter when you discover them, but we're losing them on the conveyor belt of stuff. Right. And meanwhile, we're spending all this time celebrating stuff from the last century. So that's something I think that the industry should solve. And again, it's one one of the things we should solve. And you've got to be really careful buying new vinyl. I mean, supporting artists is great, but you know, there's no point buying a vinyl record really and not listening to it. That's kind of odd to me. You should buy it and listen to it over and over again. So all these things are uh are nice problems, I think, to be solved. But I'm just glad we're having the discussion anyway, because it'd be it'd be horrible if we weren't having the discussion, if there were no vin vinyl records and no albums.

unknown 48:01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 48:01

And when I thought about what's happened in the 21st century with Napster and streaming and TikTok and now AI, I thought, well, the album shouldn't really exist by logic. But art doesn't follow logic, and we don't want it to. Why would we want art to follow some sort of logic? And tech is pure logic.

SPEAKER_00 48:26

Yeah, that's well, I'm mindful of time, right? Because I know you need to go, but that's that's that's the that's the perfect note to end on. Okay. Because because I I because it's it feels like a full stop, and uh and and uh it feels conclusive. So uh Keith, I I thank you so much for talking here today, for sharing yourself like you know, the way you do. Um you're a fascinating guy. Uh you're loved by many, including me, and I appreciate you.

SPEAKER_03 48:55

Well, thanks a lot for saying it, and thanks a lot for being so complimentary about the book. I mean, you know, touching, mate. I love this podcast, but I could be on this all day. We should do it again.

SPEAKER_01 49:06

I'd love that.

SPEAKER_03 49:06

Let's do uh version two when you've had a chance to read Roller Coaster, because I'm really keen to know what you think about that with all the work that you do with up-and-coming artists.

SPEAKER_00 49:17

Okay, all right. Uh, you have my words. I've got it already because I brought them both together. So that one's next, and then we'll and then we'll follow up. Okay, sounds good to me. Thanks. All right, thanks a lot. Okay, there you go. You see, I told you he was the great, great Keith Jopling. What an interesting guy. Do you know one of the things that really fascinates me about Keith and the way that he talks about music is that if you think about this, right? So he was the research director at IFPI. Uh, he's also been a research consultant at the likes of media, you know, who are like the kind of the go-to in the creative industries on research, you know, and it led him to go to then Spotify and this and that, and he's just very, very in demand and and and needed by so many record companies to provide insight and strategy to inform them as to what their next steps look like. He's so widely trusted, it's hard to explain how trusted he is. Now, for him to have gone through all of that time of looking at data and looking at insights and this and that and that, and then he revolves back into the key thing that pulls all of us into music, no matter where we come from or what we do, and that is the love of it. That's why we do this, isn't it? That's why we care. And I know that when I talk on this podcast to you uh about all the different aspects of music and business and where it's all going, and it all comes from here, right? I mean it, I love it. But without the actual love of music, then none of us would have even got here. And you know, we have to think about where we're gonna go next and how we protect it and all that, and maybe a lot of that is down to how we consume music and actually putting aside the time to be able to go, hey, do you know what? You know, that album that I probably should

Classic Culture Vs Finding New Greats

SPEAKER_00 51:00

know and don't, and I know that everybody loves it. Maybe I could love it too. Let me give it a go. Oh no, I don't like it. That's okay, but at least I've tried. Maybe I'll try again. Oh my god, I love it. I I've listened to it three or four times. Now I get it. And then we rejoice, don't we? We connect and we go, oh yeah, I love that, I love that. We become inspired by music, and those listening habits basically underpin absolutely every single aspect of what brings us together in music and what we build a business out of. That's one of the many things I've learned today. Anyway, I will leave that with you. I thank you for your time of being here and committing yourself to listening, learning, watching, however, you're enjoying this. Um, and I thanked uh Keith for his time today as well. Until next time, everybody, have a great day, and may the force be with you.